Promotion Rates as a Naval Aviator

[cfam]

Right, but this is a group discussion, even if I’m replying to your post. That said, why isn’t PC culture and risk aversion a factor in Fallon?

I think it’s primarily because of how accessible the club is. When COs don’t have to worry about the perceived threat of DUIs and how that would affect their career progression, then they don’t beat the ready room over the head with it.

I also think people tend to blow off steam more on det anyway, so the O Club scene at Fallon is a byproduct of a more relaxed approach.

 

[Python]

Right, but this is a group discussion, even if I’m replying to your post. That said, why isn’t PC culture and risk aversion a factor in Fallon?

Fallon is isolated. Unlike other clubs, most of its patrons are not residents. No families to get safely home to, etc.

 

[Gatordev]

That said, why isn’t PC culture and risk aversion a factor in Fallon?

I don't think you can lump remote clubs in with all clubs. As others have said, some locations are different than fleet concentration/master bases. Fallon, PMRF, AUTEC, and Atsugi have different atmospheres than bases at home, for exactly the reason that was stated...you just have to stumble to the Q room.

I think it's interesting, Brett, to hear you say the clubs were rocking when you were a JO. I was a JO slightly before you, and I wouldn't say most clubs were rocking. People didn't go to the NASNI or Miramar club when I lived in SD, they went out in town. People didn't go to the PNS club when I was a student, they went out in town. When I went through ASO school, the people that went to the PNS club were the people TAD there. When I was a Mid at Oceana, the club would have some activity in the evening, but nothing crazy (except for the annual party that HeyJoe was always a part of), and that was in the '90's.

The one place that would occasionally be a fun place was K-Bay, but even then, it was cyclical and it was easier to get to than going all the way across the island to Honolulu (or staying in town and hitting up Tropics with all the Lance Criminals).

I know others have said DUIs aren't what killed clubs, but for me, it seemed like it was DWIs that had a big effect. Just the act of having a BAC, even if legal, was a career hurdle. The last major JO O-club closing (which was probably at 2200, BTW) that I remember was met with tickets on all of our cars the following morning when we went to pick them up. Our CO took care of them for us, but it still pissed us off because we did the right thing and it continued to set the zero-defect tone.

That said, I get it. People are dumb, and even dumber when they drink, so they'll make stupid decisions and get into a car when they shouldn't. I don't have an answer to solve the issue, and with funding it's probably too late now anyway, but I can understand when people say a lot of the fun of going to the club has gone away.

 

[robav8r]

The beginning of the demise of the O club, and many, many, many, many "other" things changed after Tailhook 91'. I joined the Navy in 81 and lived in a very different Navy than what occured before Tailhook. Commensurate with Tailhook there were other demographic forces at work too, but Tailhook 91' changed Navy culture forever . . .

 

[Recovering LSO]

Commensurate with Tailhook there were other demographic forces at work too, . . .

subtle....

 

[Flash]

I think it's interesting, Brett, to hear you say the clubs were rocking when you were a JO. I was a JO slightly before you, and I wouldn't say most clubs were rocking. People didn't go to the NASNI or Miramar club when I lived in SD, they went out in town. People didn't go to the PNS club when I was a student, they went out in town. When I went through ASO school, the people that went to the PNS club were the people TAD there.

I agree, I showed up in Whidbey a bit before Brett and the club was never 'rocking' by any stretch. Like @cfam said it was decently crowded on late Friday afternoons because a few squadrons usually had 'AOMs' there but it usually died by 8pm at the latest, with a few notable exceptions like hosting a visiting Aussie P-3 crew. RAG graduations and Prowler Week functions there were always fun too, but folks still rarely shut the place down or had more than a few beers. Many of the Intruder and Prowler guys lamented just how lame the club had gotten compared to just 5 or so years before, to include a lack of strippers, which happened right around the time of Tailhook '91. The lack of VP participation when I first got there didn't help either, apparently there had been some sort of donnybrook between some of the VP and VA/VAQ guys right after the VP squadrons starting showing up and the VP squadrons didn't frequent the club for a few years after. Lunch was usually busy and decent (and not Subway), I'm disappointed they don't do it anymore but I think the profit/loss thing has more to do with DON/DOD regs more than anything else.

I wasn't long before @Gatordev at PNS and but the club there was usually pretty crowded on Friday afternoons/evenings with a lot of students along with a few instructors and staff, they had $0.50 shitty draft beers in little plastic cups and folks often started out there before heading out in town that night.

The only other clubs that were pretty good in my time were Fallon or overseas with Kadena, Misawa and Bahrain being pretty good and Iwakuni (new in 2003) being really good when most MAG-12 squadrons were in town, unfortunately I never made it to Atsugi on a Friday night. All were within stumbling distance of home though and with a looser 'deployed' attitude, away from the family and the usual scrutiny that comes with the job nowadays.

 

[Pags]

NOB club was pretty much dead way back on 06-09. Occasionally a squadron would make an effort to get some interest going but no inertia was built up. You had to call MWR and request the club to be opened for a Friday afternoon so it took some effort and couldn't be a spur of the moment thing. But then most Fridays the HSC squadrons were still flying full skeds until late at night so there was never a consistent crew of folks around to go to the club with. Coupled with a long ride home for most folks meant going to the club vice a neighborhood bar was more work.

If the club isn't open consistently and the squadron workload doesnt stop there's not a lot of incentive for folks to go to the club after work.

 

[robav8r]

There was 42% more fun before Tailhook 91' when F-14's, S-3's and SH-2's roamed the skies. I'm just sayin' . . . . .

 

[Pags]

There was 42% more fun before Tailhook 91' when F-14's, S-3's and SH-2's roamed the skies. I'm just sayin' . . . . .

So Zombie S-3s would help increase club attendance and partying?

 

[webmaster]

… but I think the profit/loss thing has more to do with DON/DOD regs more than anything else ...

THIS. I have dealt with the MWR Club managers at Kbay, Jax and overseas. Each of them are squeezed by the corporate aspect of the MWR organization and the cost of the facilities they run. After Kbay renovated the O'club back in what 02, they were freaking out about membership and making a profit since the renovation cost them so much money. Jax has/had facilities that they shuttered and are available to open for events. Each time planning an event they were ecstatic to have the squadrons there, many lamented that they had difficulty attracting Officers to frequent the clubs. People have already posted about about the reasons, but I think it is pretty simple and the path of least resistance will be taken.

- Availability, quantity and quality of local singles
- Ease to get to and from the club
- Risk aversion with the zero defect Navy
- Work requirements have grown and what free time you have you don't necessarily want to spend it with the people you worked with all week

I think that is why you find many other places becoming unofficial after hour watering holes out in town that you will find your squadron buddies at. During my JO tour there were two groups of single JOs that had houses on the beach in Hawaii that they routinely had parties and events at. This while the Kbay Oclub was trying to get us all to pay for membership and get their Oclub visa card! Yeah, no....

Forget which post it was above, but coming back the next morning and finding tickets on cars left there overnight is fucked up, glad it was taken care of. Many of the Oclubs had rooms set aside for those that weren't making it home that night, but I think that has fallen by the wayside as they keep combining.

 

[cfam]

Many of the Oclubs had rooms set aside for those that weren't making it home that night, but I think that has fallen by the wayside as they keep combining.

The only one (at least CONUS on the West coast) that I know of that still does this is Fallon. They have a room key behind the bar for any NAWDC staff members that need it. That was always a good thing to know, especially when your old squadron/airwing was in town.

 

[Brett327]

I don't think you can lump remote clubs in with all clubs. As others have said, some locations are different than fleet concentration/master bases. Fallon, PMRF, AUTEC, and Atsugi have different atmospheres than bases at home, for exactly the reason that was stated...you just have to stumble to the Q room.

I think it's interesting, Brett, to hear you say the clubs were rocking when you were a JO. I was a JO slightly before you, and I wouldn't say most clubs were rocking. People didn't go to the NASNI or Miramar club when I lived in SD, they went out in town. People didn't go to the PNS club when I was a student, they went out in town. When I went through ASO school, the people that went to the PNS club were the people TAD there. When I was a Mid at Oceana, the club would have some activity in the evening, but nothing crazy (except for the annual party that HeyJoe was always a part of), and that was in the '90's.

It's true that all clubs are not equal. My point in highlighting that Fallon is different is to illustrate that there are other factors which influence club attendance other than fear of DUI or pressure from leadership (perceived or actual). In Fallon, the conditions are such that the det mentality, absence of family demands on one's time, and convenient logistically means higher club patronage. When you're at home, these factors all come into play to discourage club patronage. I contend that these three factors hold much greater sway in a JOs decision to go to the club while at home plate than institutional pressures.

@cfam - It occurred to me that one huge difference at Whidbey is that during my JO tour, almost nobody lived in Anacortes. Moreover, there was literally nowhere in Oak Harbor officers could drink. So, no good alternatives in town, plus logistically easier makes the club a very easy choice on a Friday evening. Fast forward 10-15 years, most people live in Anacortes, which also has good places to drink in town. This makes the club option much less attractive.

TLDR - Anacortes killed the Club.

 

[Brett327]

the club was never 'rocking' by any stretch.

Disagree. I don't know what your definition of rocking is, but as a means of comparison with today, it's orders of magnitude in difference. During my JO tour, especially coincident with a RAG graduation, the club was packed from 1600-2000 or later. I know, because I was there every Friday (and I don't ever remember seeing you there, Flash ). Started to taper off around 2004.

 

[Gatordev]

Forget which post it was above, but coming back the next morning and finding tickets on cars left there overnight is fucked up, glad it was taken care of. Many of the Oclubs had rooms set aside for those that weren't making it home that night, but I think that has fallen by the wayside as they keep combining.

That was me.

The irony was that the tickets were for leaving your car parked in BOQ parking, since they shared the same lot. Having had to live in the (then) BOQ shithole for a few months, I couldn't figure out why my car never got ticketed then, but it did when I was at the club. But whatevs, like I said, our CO took care of it.

This while the Kbay Oclub was trying to get us all to pay for membership and get their Oclub visa card! Yeah, no....

I didn't realize we were supposed to pay to join. I guess I just never paid attention. Besides, that would have diverted precious funds away from boat repairs.

It's true that all clubs are not equal. My point in highlighting that Fallon is different is to illustrate that there are other factors which influence club attendance other than fear of DUI or pressure from leadership (perceived or actual). In Fallon, the conditions are such that the det mentality, absence of family demands on one's time, and convenient logistically means higher club patronage. When you're at home, these factors all come into play to discourage club patronage. I contend that these three factors hold much greater sway in a JOs decision to go to the club while at home plate than institutional pressures.

That's pretty much what I was getting at, you just used more better words.

 

[Flash]

Disagree. I don't know what your definition of rocking is, but as a means of comparison with today, it's orders of magnitude in difference. During my JO tour, especially coincident with a RAG graduation, the club was packed from 1600-2000 or later. I know, because I was there every Friday (and I don't ever remember seeing you there, Flash). Started to taper off around 2004.

Compared to Fallon or the clubs overseas, or even a civilian pub/bar out in town, it wasn't 'rocking' except on rare occasions. It was often crowded but the bulk of that dispersed by dinnertime IMO. Is the club still open, and still an O'Club? How about the Chief's club at the top of the hill?

I was there plenty, especially as an EP-3 type ironically, but I guess you were just too cool for JOPA even back then.