Porkchop shenanigans, allegedy crappy boat food, and the Great BAS Debate of 2020

[AllAmerican75]

Vending machines are refilled using the Navy’s supply system, yet where does that money go? The Navy has already “bought” the Coke...so what happens to the dollar I just paid? Is that the price it cost to supply me with the Coke, or is someone making money off this deal?

Here’s another example that makes me mad; onboard the boat we were told we couldn’t have any MWR fundraisers because it might compete with the ship somehow. (We had an officer plane wash that was deemed “illegal” after the fact). Our CMC dealt with the ship’s CMC and he explained that since we were coming back from cruise in early December we needed to raise funds for our Christmas party. No go. Meanwhile, thanks to the Avenger Cafe and the Starbucks coffee drinks that they sold (courtesy of the trained baristas who’d been sent TAD to some course) were used, along with vending machine profits, to fund their ship’s Christmas party. If I recall correctly, the air wing got some paltry sum of the vending machine money, but it was not doled out on a per capita basis.

All money from the sale of items at the ship's store and the vending machines goes to pay the overhead for the store/machines (e.g. requisition items out of the DLA or GSA supply system) and then any leftover profits go to the ship's MWR fund. So when you guys are running separate gedunks, you are, in fact, literally taking money out of the MWR fund. Not like you have many options underway. If you don't believe me, feel free to consult NASUP P-487. I believe the information you are looking for is in chapter 8. If you want to have separate MWR funds for the air wing, then that's a completely different beast and one that will need approval from the big porkchop in the sky at the Fleet or TYCOM level (I had to fight this exact battle when dealing with someone trying to shutdown the closed mess on board the PCs).

@Brett327 I’m not opposed to paying for food on the boat. But if I’m eating the same thing that’s being served on the mess decks...who’s subsidizing who here? I’m paying for food that’s already been paid for, so is it really on a cost basis? I’ve never been refunded anything from the boat, and I have a hard time believing the cost of goods ACTUALLY provided comes out to exactly $11.35 a day or whatever.

You would be absolutely surprised how closely the food on the boat gets tracked. Food money comes from two or three different pots of money depending upon who it's for. The majority of the chow aboard a Navy ship is paid for from the blue jackets' and goat locker's BAS (IIRC it's about 85% of each Sailor's BAS goes to the ship or galley ashore if they're shoreside) while a small portion is then paid out of supplemental funds for receptions/banquets when hosting dignitaries and out of special funding for flag officers' personal culinary specialist(s). The wardroom and all officer messing essentially buys food from the ship's galley and pays for that via wardroom dues and monthly mess bills. So if you were to not pay your mess bill, then it's no different than dining and dashing at a restaurant. This is a holdover from the days when the goat locker and wardroom operated as closed messes wherein all of the officers drafted a budget, pooled their money, and sent their cook out to purchase food on the economy. With the Navy's shift to a more centralized logistics model and the adoption of the 21 week menu (not to mention the rampant fraud occurring in these closed messes), this is no longer tenable. If you'd like more information, consult the NAVSUP P-486.

@Brett327I have a hard time believing the cost of goods ACTUALLY provided comes out to exactly $11.35 a day or whatever.

It's actually slightly more expensive, but that covers logistical costs so you never see it.

 

[Jim123]

Sometimes it would be like dine and dash, other times it would be more like... well if there wasn't any dine then I'm not sure what the cliché for it is- the were the times when we're on an 0500-0800 flight (which means at the aircraft about half an hour before and after). The FSO (and the SUPPO by extension) didn't do much to make sure nourishment was available for the flight crew, but still charged the full amount. Granted, some of that blame falls on us on the helo det (because we didn't fight it properly at the time but instead mostly complain about it after the fact) but just the same, there are a lot of supply officers in the tin can Navy that are guilty of it. Just as "dine and dash" is thievery, it goes both ways when I get charged for food I didn't and couldn't eat.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

Paying for shitty food didn’t bother me nearly as much as the dipshit blowing a fucking whistle at 100Db throughout the boat as though clocks and watches haven’t been invented

 

[AllAmerican75]

Sometimes it would be like dine and dash, other times it would be more like... well if there wasn't any dine then I'm not sure what the cliché for it is- the were the times when we're on an 0500-0800 flight (which means at the aircraft about half an hour before and after). The FSO (and the SUPPO by extension) didn't do much to make sure nourishment was available for the flight crew, but still charged the full amount. Granted, some of that blame falls on us on the helo det (because we didn't fight it properly at the time but instead mostly complain about it after the fact) but just the same, there are a lot of supply officers in the tin can Navy that are guilty of it. Just as "dine and dash" is thievery, it goes both ways when I get charged for food I didn't and couldn't eat.

That's a perfectly fine complaint. The thing is that SUPPO and DISBO aren't the dudes actually running the galley on a DDG, CG, or FFG. That's often entrusted to a chief or CS1 (which is more usual since the Navy can't seem to figure out how to manage their supply of CSCs effectively) who are busy trying to manage four meal services, food stores, miscreant FSAs, and the money/logistics of getting food onto the table. They're overworked and need close coordination.

I also find SUPPOs come in two flavors: Hustlers and legalistic bookworms. Hustlers are the guys who know how to properly work the gray areas of the supply regulations to get parts, chow, and fuel when and where it needs to be. They often stay on top of their departments and are effective as hell. The latter are the dudes who can quote chapter and verse verbatim from the regs but don't know how to manage and spend more time covering their asses than they do supporting the tip of the spear. These are the dudes who end up scared of the skipper and XO and like to hide in the helo tower or let their Sailors run all over them.

 

[Jim123]

Well put. Line Os come in hustler and bookworm flavors too, and do all the same good and bad things you described.

 

[Spekkio]

Don't even get me started on the Fraud, Waste, and Abuse that is making officers PAY for food while they're underway: one of the biggest crimes in the Navy.

BAS is meant to pay for food from a military source (galley, ship, etc). It's not meant to pay for groceries from a commercial source. My average WR mess bill says that I've been making bank on this deal, even though BAS doesn't pay for a full month of mess at sea. Many enlisted sailors would be mad at hearing an officer complain about a benefit they don't get... For them the money is automatically deducted.

And WR dues =/= mess bills.

 

[Spekkio]

Sure, but the monthly mess bill is about $100 more than my BAS. So, I pay more money to eat on the boat than I'm entitled to when not deployed.

Why is my mess bill more than the BAS I'm entitled to? Additionally, my wife and kids still eat at home, so being deployed essentially doubles my monthly food bill. Not everyone is a single O-5.

Because BAS is for the member (just you) to eat at military mess facilities. And some bean counter averaged how much an officer would spend in a career and came up with about 3/4 an enlisted person...and in my experience this usually favors the officer.

BAS does not exist to pay for commercially procured food or groceries for your family

 

[SynixMan]

I honestly don't know if it's a in-situ leadership problem or the supply system is so broken. I'm told in the ~2010 timeframe NAVSUP transitioned to steam oven and revamped the menu for ease of procurement and distribution, while also slashing CS billets on the CVN since more food was coming pre-cooked and just needed to be reheated. As the boats got yard period modifications, so it went. OBTW, that food is the same stuff federal prisons get, plus the steam ovens replaced actual cooking spaces so it's harder.

On the 13-14 HST Cruise our food was straight garbage in the wardooms. Our squadron had the 2 time CS of the year for HSCWL and of course he was assigned to the chiefs mess (LTJG Synix fought a brave operation to get him moved to WR3, denied plus an awkward convo with my MMCPO). Wardrooms were mostly staffed with cranking sailors who didn't care (I don't blame them, cranking sucks) and the most checked-out CS2 I've ever met. Our FSO ate in the goat locker and clearly didn't give a fuck. Captain, Big XO, CAG (sometimes), and the Suppo all mostly ate in the flag mess, so they didn't care unless it was brunch. DCAG ate with the air wing and at least commiserated with us. Rats was leftovers and powdered eggs if we were lucky. We got fresh baked bread twice in 9 months. Getting boxed lunches/to go plates ON AN AIRCRAFT CARRIER FOR FLYING FLIGHT CREWS was damn near impossible.

We used every avenue we could, comment cards, constructive and not-so-constructive complaining to FSO/SuppO/DCAG, even the Captain if we saw him. "Hey Captain, can you eat with us every once and a while so the CSs have to serve you this garbage to your face?" No joy. Before I get scolded as "JO bitching", we actually took notes on what was served, compiled this, and took it up the chain. I think we got an extra CS for rats for the trouble.

I get that it's a hard problem. I genuinely do. But just try to give a shit, just a little. Cook some actual recipes, change it up, use seasonings, dress up the basic ingredients. At least allowing people to scan into a meal to get charged would've allowed us some semblance of control/voting instead of being charged every day regardless of quality. The final indignity of having to pay the $300 every month when ground based folks get DFACs for free just rubbed it in.

From most CVN aviators I've spoken to, the above seems more common than not, which is shit.

 

[Birdbrain]

Is crappy boat food really that universal these days? It seemed to be rather different from one CV to the next in my experience. Wardroom meals were very good on Big E over two deployments. One of the MSs, or whatever they are called now days, got a NAM for his soups. On Ranger it was pretty bad. Everyone was Jonesing for an invite to the Chief's Mess. On watch, a trip to the mess decks was a nice change of pace. Heard good and bad from other airwing dudes doing westpacs on various CVs.

I'm not trying to stir the pot here, as my most relevant experience with ships was fishing with my uncle on his boat a year ago, but is this a universal thing or a US Navy thing? I hear that other navies of western countries eat rather well.

 

[Spekkio]

I'm not trying to stir the pot here, as my most relevant experience with ships was fishing with my uncle on his boat a year ago, but is this a universal thing or a US Navy thing? I hear that other navies of western countries eat rather well.

It's a 'if your fso and cs lcpo suck and the triad can't be bothered to train them or hold them accountable' thing.

 

[Birdbrain]

It's a 'if your fso and cs lcpo suck and the triad can't be bothered to train them or hold them accountable' thing.

Hmm, so it varies greatly from ship to ship then? Where can I read more about this?

 

[nittany03]

 

[AllAmerican75]

I honestly don't know if it's a in-situ leadership problem or the supply system is so broken. I'm told in the ~2010 timeframe NAVSUP transitioned to steam oven and revamped the menu for ease of procurement and distribution, while also slashing CS billets on the CVN since more food was coming pre-cooked and just needed to be reheated. As the boats got yard period modifications, so it went. OBTW, that food is the same stuff federal prisons get, plus the steam ovens replaced actual cooking spaces so it's harder.

This is more or less correct. The Navy eliminated closed messes (which is how wardrooms used to operate), switched to a standardized 21 week menu that is decided upon by SUPPOs somewhere in DC, streamlined the logistics pipeline for food, placed severe restrictions on how and why SUPPOs at sea could step out of the logistics system (takes a lot of work and the money just isn't there), and began removing/replacing galley equipment that was either high maintenance or "unhealthy" or both. This all happened around the same time the Navy decided that all A-school training would shift over to computer-based instruction. This meant that young CSs were being taught to select select the appropriate meal recipe cards (literally a PMS card for a dish), select the appropriate bags/cans/boxes of "food" from the storeroom/reefer, then follow the directions exactly as printed. This was supposed to reduce training budgets, manpower requirements, and make life easier on the SUPPOs. It really did none of those things. Now you have CSs who don't know their rate, are shit on constantly because the food sucks, and there's not much that can be done about it without large changes in Washington.

An example: Our skipper wanted hard pack ice cream in the middle of deployment. His idea was to throw a big ice cream social in order to boost morale which was sagging due to a high OPTEMPO and us being in River City for nearly a month due to Firescout being a piece of shit. There literally wasn't money available to buy it and the supply system didn't have it in stock. All we could get was autodog. I'm not sure what scheme SUPPO came up with, but I'm pretty sure he had to draw up special funds out of MWR or something to buy the ice cream. It was ridiculous, but he knew how to hustle.

Also, NAVSUP is an extremely shady and paranoid organization. To get anything done in the Supply world, you've got to know the right people. At the same time, you have to be able to ensure that your paper trail is sufficient to cover your wheeling and dealing and horse trading. And everything needs to be in triplicate. The entire Navy Supply System is broken both technically and ethically. Also, DLA is a mafia-esque organization that is run by double-dipping retired military who have zero give-a-shit and are either criminally inept or corrupt. When former SECNAV Spencer used to rail on them and talk about switching over to Boeing Commercial Services for parts, he was absolutely on point.

We used every avenue we could, comment cards, constructive and not-so-constructive complaining to FSO/SuppO/DCAG, even the Captain if we saw him. "Hey Captain, can you eat with us every once and a while so the CSs have to serve you this garbage to your face?" No joy. Before I get scolded as "JO bitching", we actually took notes on what was served, compiled this, and took it up the chain. I think we got an extra CS for rats for the trouble.

For the future, something you should know is that every officer is allowed to "sample the Mess" in the galley. This is usually done for every meal and the off-going watch sends someone down to eat on the mess decks and then inspect the galley. This is designed to maintain meal quality and identify materiel problems early so they can be fixed. These inspections must be documented via a report and then catalogued and combined into a regular report to the skipper (and maybe ISIC and NAVSUP, it's been a while). This is the tool you should use if you want change to come to the mess, this is the way as it will make the officers very visible in the eyes of the CSs and will apply pressure on SUPPO to fix problems. This works well on small boys where it's all the same food. Not sure how this would work with big decks when you have multiple galleys, but it's worth a shot.

 

[taxi1]

already answered, ignore!

 

[HAL Pilot]

Additionally, my wife and kids still eat at home, so being deployed essentially doubles my monthly food bill. Not everyone is a single O-5.

Because BAS is for the member (just you) to eat at military mess facilities. And some bean counter averaged how much an officer would spend in a career and came up with about 3/4 an enlisted person...and in my experience this usually favors the officer.

BAS does not exist to pay for commercially procured food or groceries for your family

What @Spekkio said.

Even when I was married I thought it was bullshit that servicemembers with dependents were paid more BAQ then unmarried. The BAQ was to provide for the servicemember's quarters, not the extra room for the spouse and kids.