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Officer Promotion Overhaul

squorch2

he will die without safety brief
pilot
- FOSx2 O4 continuation boards:
Addresses things like the O4 board bloodbath of several years ago, where we, frankly, didn't take very good care of our people. This will allow FOSx2 officers to continue to reach their 20 year mark if they so desire.
these already exist, and have so for a long time - what's the actual change?
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
I wish people would stop saying “BLUF”. If you want to state the bottom line up front, just say it. Saying “BLUF” first defeats the purpose of just stating the main idea. Bottom line up second after a stupid PowerPoint acronym.
Funny thing- in technical writing, I was taught to write the conclusion first and if the paper is going to be a long one then put the important information on the first pages and trail off with least important stuff going at the end. If the reader skips the last few pages then they still got the main points. Military briefs are supposed to be a lot like that.

It's sort of the opposite to academic writing when the main body of an essay builds up to a strong conclusion. (One isn't better or worse, they're just different.)

No need to write "BLUF" or otherwise let everybody know hey, pay the most attention to the first part when it's understood that this is how you and your peers do written communication.
 

robav8r

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
None of these is what we're talking about, or what NAE is currently working on.

Surprise! You're wrong. The issue is precisely a lack of Instructor Pilots in key production billets.
Brett, your "Dick Factor" is strong today !!! Actually, R1 is not entirely wrong. All of the programs he mentions were attempts to correct an imbalance in the NAE due to several different factors, across communities and because of different cultural and professional issues. WHY do we have a lack of IP's in key production billets? I'm sure the answer lies in several of the same challenges that the Navy tried to address previously.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Brett, your "Dick Factor" is strong today !!! Actually, R1 is not entirely wrong. All of the programs he mentions were attempts to correct an imbalance in the NAE due to several different factors, across communities and because of different cultural and professional issues. WHY do we have a lack of IP's in key production billets? I'm sure the answer lies in several of the same challenges that the Navy tried to address previously.
Yeah, I know. Spike gets on my nerves. Anyway, good questions that I don't have the answers to. I'm just putting out the word.
 
D

Deleted member 67144 scul

Guest
Yeah. We could use this in the Reserve 1825/IP community. I've experienced rank discrimination on multiple occasions. That is, I've been in numerous situations (ORT and others) where my rank was equated to my level of competence. Had I been an O5 or O6 in those situations, I would have made some real impact to the operations. Instead, it was like, "hey LT, go sit over there." That is, go shut up an color. This is despite the fact that I have, for the last 10 years, managed and executed situations as ORT in the private sector. Meanwhile, that Active Duty O5 or O6 URL who is on his or her 2-3 year tour at the command and who has zero experience in the field is the one "in charge."

I feel bad for the folks getting commissioned these days. The recruiters play them up, "hey, we need people with your expertise... blah, blah." Then, the people get commissioned and find out the sad reality. At least on the Reserve side, we've had people leave because they come in and realize what a bunch of b.s. it was and that they are not in fact going to get to use their civilian skills to help.

For Intel and IP I'd say it's pretty disheartening. I see folks getting commissioned into Intel who speak multiple languages and who have real world experience and high education (because hey, that's what the recruiter is telling them the Reserve needs) come in and drool due to rank discrimination. It's just as bad if not worse on the IP side of the house. Folks with multiple certifications, phD's, etc. come in and are like "WTF" when they are treated like coffee runners.

I understand you mean active duty officers who commissioned later in life, or Reserve DCO accessions. 22 year-olds required to commission because they needed money for college have no expertise, not even those masochistically smart science and engineering majors from good tech schools.

I'm one of those soon-to-be new Reserve officers. I looked through the recruitment BS and laughed in the face of anyone who thought they were fooling me. It's not my first rodeo in this general area, either. I know the BS I'm getting into, and I know my civilian skills will not be used at all (minus general management / soft skills). But I'm also used to being mistreated by dreadfully incompetent 40+ year-old dictators with massive egos at various points in my job, so my perspective may be different. I'm looking forward to starting, in any case.

It begs the question, why don't they then get a commission? Well, they have competing commitments with their regular job, family, school, etc. and we don't exactly make it easy to get a commission easy (nor should it be, but still...). As for me, I have to make a conscious effort to remember that paygrade does not always equal ability in the reserves- not to mention it can certainly go wildly in either direction!

After thoroughly exploring the services, the Navy DCO program is by far the most competitive and selective commissioning program in the US armed forces, for reasons I'm still attempting to fully establish. Along with the other things you stated, it's certainly a very substantial reason. It's just extremely difficult to get in. I know that from first-hand experience and the sorts of things I had to do. On the other end of the spectrum, if you like running, the Marines will pretty much take you right out of the box.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
Initiatives and stuff...

I have a feeling this will end up helping individuals in some communities more than others. That's not meant to be a positive or negative statement, just an observation. At least they're finally initiating some flexibility.

I wish people would stop saying “BLUF”. If you want to state the bottom line up front, just say it. Saying “BLUF” first defeats the purpose of just stating the main idea. Bottom line up second after a stupid PowerPoint acronym.

Overall, I agree with you, but when your boss(es) expect it, it tends to creep into your usage. I resisted it for as long as I could, but when I needed my boss(es) attention quickly in order to get a quick response, BLUF became my friend.

But now I don't have to worry about that anymore.
 

wlawr005

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
You can change officer career timing without changing the up or out system.

If I could, I'd spend another two years in my fleet squadron...go through another set of work ups, actually use this division lead qual I worked so hard to get.

Instead, I go somewhere new soon. We spend so much time and money pumping guys through pipelines to meet community timing wickets that we lose the benefits of having qualified guys to begin with.
 
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bubblehead

Registered Member
Contributor
After thoroughly exploring the services, the Navy DCO program is by far the most competitive and selective commissioning program in the US armed forces, for reasons I'm still attempting to fully establish. Along with the other things you stated, it's certainly a very substantial reason. It's just extremely difficult to get in. I know that from first-hand experience and the sorts of things I had to do.
Everyone and their mother wants to be a Naval Officer. Due to the sheer number of applicants the Navy has to make the entrance requirements commensurate with that of those applying. Everyone applying for Intel or IP are ultra/uber qualified and all piss excellence.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
You can change officer career timing without changing the up or out system.

If I could, I'd spend another two years in my fleet squadron...go through another set of work ups, actually use this division lead qual I worked so hard to get.

Instead, I go somewhere new soon. We spend so much time and money pumping guys through pipelines to meet community timing wickets that we lose the benefits of having qualified guys to begin with.
Five years would be a long time to spend in one place. Most people will get burned out after three years. You have options to exercise your advanced quals - most of them involving a patch of some sort, then returning with even more expertise as a TO, etc.

Part of the reason guys are getting their quals later in their first tour is due to general reduction of flying opportunities - specifically Strike Fighter community health. I know you understand this, but the 36 month tour has, under normal circumstances, historically worked pretty well.
 
D

Deleted member 67144 scul

Guest
Everyone and their mother wants to be a Naval Officer. Due to the sheer number of applicants the Navy has to make the entrance requirements commensurate with that of those applying. Everyone applying for Intel or IP are ultra/uber qualified and all piss excellence.

One would think highly educated professionals in their 30s would prefer the AF Reserve or ANG for its corporate culture, being more technical, and better living standards. It's not like Reserve Naval Officers are going to be getting much (if any) sea time, or a MOB touring around Europe and East Asia. I was directly told I'll be going to Africa/Mideast for MOBs and CONUS is not an option, which is rather worse than the ARC's opportunities.
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
One would think highly educated professionals in their 30s would prefer the AF Reserve or ANG for its corporate culture, being more technical, and better living standards. It's not like Reserve Naval Officers are going to be getting much (if any) sea time, or a MOB touring around Europe and East Asia. I was directly told I'll be going to Africa/Mideast for MOBs and CONUS is not an option, which is rather worse than the ARC's opportunities.
It all depends. DJ and the 'Stan make up the bulk of deployments to garden spots and what you say about reserve mobilizations is generally true, but a lot of intel guys also go to Germany and Hawaii (or elsewhere in the Pacific) for long sets of orders or deployments. There are a decent number of short and long trips to Bahrain too.

I know at least one intel guy, LCDR so not a fresh DCO, who got a year of CONUS ADSW (it doesn't count as a deployment but it did give him some "soft" credit with IDCRC).

Supply, Intel, and Chaplain Corps communities all systematically keep their newly commissioned reserve officers from getting plucked for IAs (deployments) until they've completed their initial Navy schooling in their specialty (usually takes reservists several weeks spread out over 1-2 years in these fields). After that period, they more or less manage their people fairly well. Supply works a bit differently and there are a few subtle differences from the perspective of a business-minded person considering a reserve commission as a Supply Officer. Medical, JAGs, AMDO, and AEDO work still yet a bit differently too.

One way or another, if you're a civilian professional and you get a direct commission in the reserves, before long you're gonna get put to work more than just "one weekend a month and two weeks a year."
 
D

Deleted member 67144 scul

Guest
Thanks for the insight sir. The Reserve EDO community is similar. In the 4-5 years it takes to get qualified, you're not on the MOB list. And who knows, the landscape could change a lot in 4-5 years. Maybe further reduction in Afghanistan, greater build up in East Asia and the Persian Gulf, China's massively expanding influence and hegemony in Africa (notably Djibouti among other countries), etc. I don't know if there's any business for EDOs in Baghdad like there is in Kabul, but if there is that'd be a decent option.

I understand there will be quite a bit more work than the weekend a month and 2 weeks a year mantra and that it will be unpaid, but at least it's a more valuable use of my time than, say, additional unpaid overtime at a crashing tech corporation. :rolleyes:
 

Hair Warrior

Well-Known Member
Contributor
Supply, Intel, and Chaplain Corps communities all systematically keep their newly commissioned reserve officers from getting plucked for IAs (deployments) until they've completed their initial Navy schooling in their specialty (usually takes reservists several weeks spread out over 1-2 years in these fields). After that period, they more or less manage their people fairly well.
I've been told a slightly different understanding. It's not driven by the functional communities. I could not find the law/reg, but I was briefed once about it: There is an obscure federal law - enacted circa Vietnam era - preventing the military from mobilizing any service member before that member completes 89 (or 78 or some number like that) minimum days of training. It's not an issue for active duty because every enlisted boot camp and officer commissioning source meets the threshold. But for DIRCOM reservists, it can take a year or two to hit that minimum number of days in uniform to be eligible to deploy.

Secondly, the Navy will flat out not put any reserve officer in a mob billet downrange before that officer completes his/her basic professional qualifications (PQS). The Navy does not want the liability of an "unqualified" intel officer (or any reserve officer) making the wrong call on a watch floor somewhere and getting people hurt or killed. With intel, it's not that an officer would make a "wrong" decision, but rather the risk of indecision/ inaction/ failure to relay timely info via proper channels to the operators who need to know it. Being qualified doesn't avert mistakes, obviously, but it's a legal CYA for the Navy.
 
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nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I've been told a slightly different understanding. It's not driven by the functional communities. I could not find the law/reg, but I was briefed once about it: There is an obscure federal law - enacted circa Vietnam era - preventing the military from mobilizing any service member before that member completes 89 (or 78 or some number like that) minimum days of training. It's not an issue for active duty because every enlisted boot camp and officer commissioning source meets the threshold. But for DIRCOM reservists, it can take a year or two to hit that minimum number of days in uniform to be eligible to deploy.

Secondly, the Navy will flat out not put any reserve officer in a mob billet downrange before that officer completes his/her basic professional qualifications (PQS). The Navy does not want the liability of an "unqualified" intel officer (or any reserve officer) making the wrong call on a watch floor somewhere and getting people hurt or killed. With intel, it's not that an officer would make a "wrong" decision, but rather the risk of indecision/ inaction/ failure to relay timely info via proper channels to the operators who need to know it. Being qualified doesn't avert mistakes, obviously, but it's a legal CYA for the Navy.
The four most dangerous phrases in the Navy, reserve or otherwise:
  • A Seaman saying "I learned this in boot camp."
  • An Ensign saying "In my experience."
  • A hinge saying "I was just thinking."
  • A Master Chief chuckling to himself/herself and saying "watch this shit."
Govern yourself accordingly . . .
 

Hair Warrior

Well-Known Member
Contributor
Actually, it was briefed to me (in an auditorium) in a mobilization briefing by the GS civilian whose job is to monitor, route, and approve/ disapprove all the mob's for my community.
 
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