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OCS Attrition

Renegade One

Well-Known Member
None
Did you guys have flight physicals prior to going to AOCS?
I had a Navy physical up at NAS Dallas during my application process…don't know if it was a flight physical or not, but it was separate from my draft physical, which down in San Antonio. So the answer is maybe. Maybe someone else recalls with more clarity.
 

Evan Pappas

Member
Really? NAMI has been totally horrible lately. My class lost 4 of 10 SNAs to the whammy, including one is still up there (we graduated in May).

Do you mind me asking what kinda stuff they got whammied for? Is it typically for something that was originally wavered or is it stuff that popped up out of the blue?
 

Nuknfuts

New Member
Do you mind me asking what kinda stuff they got whammied for? Is it typically for something that was originally wavered or is it stuff that popped up out of the blue?

I saw it all. A few folks showed up with vision clearly out of SNA standards (requiring glasses and all that) - redes'd NFO. That's pretty unforgivable because their recruiters apparently told them their vision was fine.

There were a few anthro'd out - common ones were arm reach and sitting height.

Some eye issues like calcium deposits popped up on the eye exam - some bad enough that people weren't sure they could even stay in the Navy.

Scoliosis/back problems will also show up during your meeting with the flight doc.

Some of that stuff may have been originally waivered, but most are things your MEPS physical isn't going to know/care about
 

exNavyOffRec

Well-Known Member
I saw it all. A few folks showed up with vision clearly out of SNA standards (requiring glasses and all that) - redes'd NFO. That's pretty unforgivable because their recruiters apparently told them their vision was fine.

OR's have ZERO control over this, if MEPS or another doctor says their vision is within limits then that is what N3M will go with, OR's are not qualified to make any medical decisions.
 

LFCFan

*Insert nerd wings here*
Do you mind me asking what kinda stuff they got whammied for? Is it typically for something that was originally wavered or is it stuff that popped up out of the blue?

Most of it was out of the blue stuff. The above posts cover a good number of things people got whammied for. One guy got royally screwed as he had been previously hurt at OCS, healed up outside of the Navy, got back into OCS with a waiver for stress fractures, and then got NPQed for a history of stress fractures.

The single worst horror story goes to a prior who was going NFO. He was an E-6 and probably would have picked up chief had he not gone to OCS. They somehow figured out that he had some kind of allergy or respiratory problem, and consequently he was separated from the Navy.

Fortunately the new flight surgeon seems pretty interested in helping candidates keep their slots, which is good for you guys.
 

zippy

Freedom!
pilot
Contributor
I have gotten feedback. Surprisingly it was Med DQ at all. Many folks simply quit within the first or second day because they had a change of heart.

It sounds as though part of the solution to may be a more robust preparation/ peer sit down by one of the Junior Officers at the NRDs about what to expect during the first three weeks or so of OCS (Being yelled at, stress management etc.), or the NRDs doing a better job pairing up OCS selectees with recent graduates from the district so they can get the gouge on how things will be for them. I know one recently who was very well prepped physically for the indoc, but collapsed under the stress of getting yelled at and quit. Talking to them on the phone while they were "hurt" and tucked away in H company while they rationalized their impending DOR, they made it obvious that they weren't mentally prepared to handle the stress of indoc week and were driven to quite. IMO, part this particular candidates failure may lay in coddling that their generation has become accustomed to (VFA-106 recently wrote a white paper on the difficulties of training Millennials) and part lack of preparation lays in the hands of the JOs at the NRD the processed through (their OR was enlisted) for not ensuring that their candidate knew what to expect prior to shipping off. However and NRD staff may choose to accomplish this pre-ship training, there should be no illusions on the candidates part that they will be yelled at, PT'd and treated somewhat sub-human for the first few weeks or so. More due diligence in the screening of candidates by some NRD's prior to boards, vice focusing on production quotas (if that is the case), and then prep of FS candidates may better prevent wasted time and resource investments on the quitters while perfectly good, motivated, candidates aren't being selected.
 

Nuknfuts

New Member
It sounds as though part of the solution to may be a more robust preparation/ peer sit down by one of the Junior Officers at the NRDs about what to expect during the first three weeks or so of OCS (Being yelled at, stress management etc.), or the NRDs doing a better job pairing up OCS selectees with recent graduates from the district so they can get the gouge on how things will be for them. I know one recently who was very well prepped physically for the indoc, but collapsed under the stress of getting yelled at and quit. Talking to them on the phone while they were "hurt" and tucked away in H company while they rationalized their impending DOR, they made it obvious that they weren't mentally prepared to handle the stress of indoc week and were driven to quite. IMO, part this particular candidates failure may lay in coddling that their generation has become accustomed to (VFA-106 recently wrote a white paper on the difficulties of training Millennials) and part lack of preparation lays in the hands of the JOs at the NRD the processed through (their OR was enlisted) for not ensuring that their candidate knew what to expect prior to shipping off. However and NRD staff may choose to accomplish this pre-ship training, there should be no illusions on the candidates part that they will be yelled at, PT'd and treated somewhat sub-human for the first few weeks or so. More due diligence in the screening of candidates by some NRD's prior to boards, vice focusing on production quotas (if that is the case), and then prep of FS candidates may better prevent wasted time and resource investments on the quitters while perfectly good, motivated, candidates aren't being selected.

I had a discussion with one of the RDCs at OCS in CandiO phase. He was very angry at a spate of major injuries that had occurred recently and asked what kind of preparation we got for OCS. The level of preparation differed a lot from NRD to NRD and sometimes, even OR to OR. My OR, for instance, was an LDO who had no first hand experience with OCS - likewise, others had enlisted recruiters, Academy grads, etc. Seems like it's very different from the enlisted recruiting side where enlisted recruiters have gone through the same thing the enlisted recruits are about to
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
So you think that the entire recruiting process should change because one person couldn't handle being yelled at, and that this one person is representative of an entire generation of people?

Sounds like the woman who was on the news the other day who wanted the state of CA to mandate rear-view cameras for backing up because she was a retard and hit a child backing out of her driveway.

Millions of Americans safely back out of their driveways everyday, and thousands upon thousands of candidates have withstood the horrors of being yelled at by a 24 year old candio with a McDonald's ribbon. In fact, there are people who have done it without any access to the internet or knowing anything at all about what happens at OCS.

On top of that, every OCS grad I've spoken to has seen the corny 1990s OCS video where candidates -- you guessed it -- get yelled at.

Not being physically prepared is one thing. It's fairly easy to spot a candidate that's out of shape and pretty easy to administer a test PRT. But spotting someone who will become a sad panda for being yelled at? Much harder to detect.

There are so many resources available to people now that if one arrives to OCS unprepared, he simply didn't want to be an officer in the first place.
 
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Renegade One

Well-Known Member
None
I had a discussion with one of the RDCs at OCS in CandiO phase. He was very angry at a spate of major injuries that had occurred recently and asked what kind of preparation we got for OCS.
MEMO TO ALL RDCs:

Stop breaking our candidates. If your candidates are suffering major injuries…you're doing it wrong.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
Pretty much that too...

I strongly suspect that the popping I get in my knees is from bear crawling until you can't hold yourself up anymore and being crashed into by other candidates in a 4' wide p-way everyday for 2 1/2 months straight. There are ways to push people to physical exhaustion without making them bowl each other over because you can't see where you're going in a confined space.
 

exNavyOffRec

Well-Known Member
I had a discussion with one of the RDCs at OCS in CandiO phase. He was very angry at a spate of major injuries that had occurred recently and asked what kind of preparation we got for OCS. The level of preparation differed a lot from NRD to NRD and sometimes, even OR to OR. My OR, for instance, was an LDO who had no first hand experience with OCS - likewise, others had enlisted recruiters, Academy grads, etc. Seems like it's very different from the enlisted recruiting side where enlisted recruiters have gone through the same thing the enlisted recruits are about to

It doesn't matter who the OR was or if they are enlisted or officer, it matters the level of care they put into their candidates,
I had a discussion with one of the RDCs at OCS in CandiO phase. He was very angry at a spate of major injuries that had occurred recently and asked what kind of preparation we got for OCS. The level of preparation differed a lot from NRD to NRD and sometimes, even OR to OR. My OR, for instance, was an LDO who had no first hand experience with OCS - likewise, others had enlisted recruiters, Academy grads, etc. Seems like it's very different from the enlisted recruiting side where enlisted recruiters have gone through the same thing the enlisted recruits are about to

Who was the recruiter is not as important as how much time the recruiter takes to prepare the person for OCS, at my NRD the two people who had the lowest OCS attrition were myself (a CPO) and a LDO, I had 3 over 3 years (two medically DQ then dropped but one fixed the issue and is flying now, and another who just quit, more to that story than needed here), the LDO had 1 over 2 years (medically DQ who was sent home and fixed the issue and is now flying).

An applicant should not be fire and forget once they are selected, there is a lot that goes into getting them ready for OCS, this is not just starting a job for them, this is a lifestyle change, anyone that has been a part of the military should know this, whether they are enlisted or officer
 

Tycho_Brohe

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
On top of that, every OCS grad I've spoken to has seen the corny 1990s OCS video where candidates -- you guessed it -- get yelled at.
That's because it's part of the application; there's actually a form you sign (or inital, maybe) that says "I have watched Faces of OCS and Wings of Gold or something like that." Maybe they should include Full Metal Jacket in there or something. I know OCS is nothing like that anymore, but maybe it'll better prepare some people for the verbal abuse they might encounter.
But in all honesty, with the way the program is going, how much easier it's becoming, I just have NO sympathy for people who drop now because they just can't handle it mentally. You get a hella nice suite-style room with a private head and two showers for four people (as opposed to 5 showers for like 50), almost anything you want in chow hall, no more eating by the numbers, and as long as you can follow orders, you're not gonna get beat that bad (unless you suck at drill).
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
......But in all honesty, with the way the program is going, how much easier it's becoming, I just have NO sympathy for people who drop now because they just can't handle it mentally. You get a hella nice suite-style room with a private head and two showers for four people (as opposed to 5 showers for like 50), almost anything you want in chow hall, no more eating by the numbers, and.....

You need some help chipping off some of that salt crust that you have built up over you long career in the Navy? ;)

I am sure these guys would agree with you that them young'uns going through OCS nowadays are just a softies, mollycoddled by their mums and society:

n17.jpg


Much less these guys who would agree them boys and girls going through Newport now are just a bunch of namby pambies:

flogging_med.jpg


......as long as you can follow orders, you're not gonna get beat that bad (unless you suck at drill).....

If it didn't involve actual physical beating I am not sure you can really call it a 'beating', unless you want to sound like a tool.
 
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