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New brownout approach procedures / training?

IKE

Nerd Whirler
pilot
Been doing it for a few months now. It's the ONLY way to fly when doing brownout. Doors off is the solution to brownout. We just need to lose the idiotic aspects of the IFC that require removing soundproofing.
It's also just fun and provides a strong cue to slightest bit of sideslip, especially in an auto.

For the record (well, the AW record), it's the calculator-toting nerds that won't let the soundproofing stay in, not the test pilots.
 

IKE

Nerd Whirler
pilot
I'd be curious as to how this was decided as the best path. Seems like it would be high workload and high CRM.
Also, I thought we learned from a recent mishap that fancy hover drift indicators are not a replacement for maneuvering the aircraft to the ground expeditiously.

I hope those rewriting DVE landing procedures understand that risk is severity × probability, and for DVE landings, time spent in the low-vis/high-power-reqd state is a major contributor to the probability piece.
 

busdriver

Well-Known Member
None
As long as the terrain allows it, fly a shallow approach and find something in the chin bubble to land. Doors off does make it easier, if the nerds have a problem with sound proofing, get rid of it. Easy for me to say, I've never flown a Hawk with that shit installed.

I remember folks exploring the two person thing years ago. First I'd heard of it was the 160th. The older 47s and 60s didn't have a automatic dial down, but the new birds did from what I heard. Someone figured you could do the same thing manually with just hover cues if you split up the work load I guess. I thought we'd pulled it from all our documentation. It isn't practical is the bottom line.

We added an improved auto hover hold system that has a decent button that will take the aircraft to the ground. If there's any AF dudes doing the OGE hover thing, that's probably what they're using.
 

zippy

Freedom!
pilot
Contributor
As long as the terrain allows it, fly a shallow approach and find something in the chin bubble to land. Doors off does make it easier, if the nerds have a problem with sound proofing, get rid of it. Easy for me to say, I've never flown a Hawk with that shit installed.

I remember folks exploring the two person thing years ago. First I'd heard of it was the 160th.
Apparently it became SOP for them. Not sure if it's still the case with their new upgrades.
 

jtmedli

Well-Known Member
pilot
It's also just fun and provides a strong cue to slightest bit of sideslip, especially in an auto.

For the record (well, the AW record), it's the calculator-toting nerds that won't let the soundproofing stay in, not the test pilots.
Yeah it's great. There are things we need to do if we go doors off more often like buying everyone unidirectional mics or facial shields (like every other service does). Personally, I wouldn't hate going doors off for everything.

I know it's them Someone needs to clue them into the fact that we fly with doors off and windows open every time we have a .50cal onboard. I was also told that the soundproofing thing came from the F/H which had crappier soundproofing that wasn't cam-locked into the roof like the S has and nobody actually thought to delete that part. That's word of mouth though and it could be BS.
 

Hotdogs

Leeroy Jenkins
pilot
Curious to know what the Marines at WTI in Yuma think about this.

<--- Not a Huey dude

I have never heard a Huey flight crew briefing split flight controls or intentionally going into a HOGE brownout.

As a Cobra dude I generally try to avoid landing or taking off in brownout situations due to the absolutely shitty visibility from the rear seat to the deck and lack of aircrew to make calls. I am not saying we don't maintain a proficiency level at it but it's generally not something that our community is overly familiar with or really want to stick our necks into if we can avoid it. As the tactical situation dictates sometimes it is required into and out of FARPs or another austere landing sites....and I sure as hell ain't giving the controls to a boot motherfucker in the front seat to do it.
 

jtmedli

Well-Known Member
pilot
Just put duct tape over the other side of the mic. The face shield blows, it makes it really hard to look straight down with goggles on. Get a pair of M frames with the rubber gasket add on and keep your mouth closed in the cloud.
Way ahead of you on that one. I've found the duct tape makes little to no actual difference in VOX for me. The m-frames are legit though. a lot of guys like the ESS Supressors too.
 

IKE

Nerd Whirler
pilot
I was also told that the soundproofing thing came from the F/H which had crappier soundproofing that wasn't cam-locked into the roof like the S has and nobody actually thought to delete that part. That's word of mouth though and it could be BS.
You shut your mouth.
EVERYTHING about the F/H is better than the S, and no logical arguments will convince me otherwise.
 

hscs

Registered User
pilot
There's an IFC for it! Just have to get blessing from CNAF to be a blessed squadron. :rolleyes:
Great to hear - why does CNAF have to sign off on a squadron to use an IFC? Is it buno dependent?

I wouldn't worry about lack of soundproofing.

@IKE - H wins over in GAU17 and software. I also feel like the EGIs were better, too.
 

jtmedli

Well-Known Member
pilot
I also feel like the EGIs were better, too.
Really? I've had minimal EGI problems with the Sierra. Only 1 or 2 that I can think of since I've been flying it.

Don't use that nonsense. It make communicating effectively while your guys are shooting next to impossible.
I don't use it doors off. Only PTT for doors off. I use VOX for normal stuff like FCFs and Fam flights a lot though.
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
Only go HOGE in a brownout if you have power and a really good coupled hover system.

The V-22 does pretty well with a vertical letdown from a coupled hover. There are now I believe 5 different techniques for brownouts, with varying degrees of automation and entering from HOGE, HIGE, and no-hover landings.

A lot of guys try to ironman it in and hand fly it in really bad zones when they shouldn't, trying to shave off a few seconds. Then they blow that theory up by flogging the dolphin in the dust cloud and/or waving it off.
 
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