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New brownout approach procedures / training?

Rick James

New Member
Anyone started actually teaching the new brownout approach profiles being introduced on the West Coast? Any thoughts or feedback on them?

Any FRS bubbas out there that can explain some of the specifics of the approaches? -- especially the one where you hand over some of the flight controls to a copilot while holding a HOGE over the LZ - while in brownout? Does the HAC maintain the collective or the cyclic? What happens during a waveoff? Who logs the landing? Who's reading off torque, airspeed and altitude throughout the descent, if both pilots are instrument flying their collective or cyclic off the hover display?

What operational situation is this approach intended for? Single ship, with no ground threat or time constraints for landing, with plenty of power available for the HOGE descent? Or is this intended for assault missions, where you'd be in formation, in a hostile environment, with a heavy load of troops in the back, trying to land in a confined area to a TOT?

An argument I've heard for the "split flight control HOGE descent" brownout approach is that this is what the Army and Air Force H-60 crews are doing -- it's their "solution to brownout." Is this an actual standard, published Army/AF procedure, or an individual pilot technique? Has there been actual objective testing to confirm that this type of hover and approach is actually safer, or is it all anectodal opinion?

I'll expose my bias here: In brownout, I'd rather just have the cockpit doors off and fly a standard approach, with a proficient and current pilot in full control of all the flight controls.
 

hscs

Registered User
pilot
Not to pick but where are the procedures listed? Last time I checked procedures were not limited to one coast....
 

Rick James

New Member
Not to pick but where are the procedures listed? Last time I checked procedures were not limited to one coast....
All I know is west coast weapons school is advocating for the procedures, HSC-3 was supposedly getting ready to start teaching them, and NAWDC was close to writing them into the SEAWOLF manual.
 

Rick James

New Member
Planning to be in a HOGE in the dust isn't advisable.
Agreed. Only thing that could possibly make it worse would be to throw in some extra noise by having one pilot fly the collective while the other pilot flies the cyclic. Which is a real thing they're advocating for.
 

Randy Daytona

Cold War Relic
pilot
Super Moderator
All I know is west coast weapons school is advocating for the procedures, HSC-3 was supposedly getting ready to start teaching them, and NAWDC was close to writing them into the SEAWOLF manual.
Curious to know what the Marines at WTI in Yuma think about this.
 

Pags

Pope of Chili Town
pilot
Agreed. Only thing that could possibly make it worse would be to throw in some extra noise by having one pilot fly the collective while the other pilot flies the cyclic. Which is a real thing they're advocating for.
I'd be curious as to how this was decided as the best path. Seems like it would be high workload and high CRM.
 

Rick James

New Member
I'd be curious as to how this was decided as the best path. Seems like it would be high workload and high CRM.
And higher power required. And slower. And it would make the brownout worse. And I still don't understand why you would want to have one person flying the collective and one person flying the cyclic in this situation. Or why you would ever do that.
 

jtmedli

Well-Known Member
pilot
Or they could do something to improve visibility like allowing doors off flight in the 60S....
Been doing it for a few months now. It's the ONLY way to fly when doing brownout. Doors off is the solution to brownout. We just need to lose the idiotic aspects of the IFC that require removing soundproofing.
 
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