Navy HR Contacting IRR Folks...

[Single Seat]

Rumor de jour from all the Selres guys here in airline world is that guys are dropping like flies into IRR due to the number of 12 month vacations being handed out. Any troof to that? If so, that is a real shame and a failure of reserve leadership, IMO. Yes, the law protects your jobby job, but you can't tell me that the guy at the desk next to yours won't get the promotion/extra opportunity that you should be competing for because there is a good chance that you may leave your employer hanging for a year or so. Thoughts?

I would say I sympathize but not really, after basically being off limits for the past 15 or so years from the whole mob it had to come to an end sooner or later. Welcome to the reserves.

True statement that VR is losing guys left and right. Numbers over the last month vary but the word is as many as 37 guys across the wing have quit.

To address Flash, it's not about the last 15 years. It's the fact that VR has been populated with SELRES that have spent the last 10-15 years on AD and have the sea time, and IA merit badges already. To then get a "welcome to the reserves, here's your 330 to Afghanistan." Hasn't exactly been a 10 year gravy train for a lot of those now getting tagged. That 5 year dwell you were supposed to have from your IA on active duty, that now doesn't carry over to the reserves.

The current policy is you can drop into the IRR right up until your squadron has been notified that it's on the hook to cough up a body. Once the MOB drops, CFLSW will not positively endorse any IRR requests until the MOB has been filled. Anyone thinking of going VR, caveat emptor.

 

[Flash]

To address Flash, it's not about the last 15 years. It's the fact that VR has been populated with SELRES that have spent the last 10-15 years on AD and have the sea time, and IA merit badges already. To then get a "welcome to the reserves, here's your 330 to Afghanistan." Hasn't exactly been a 10 year gravy train for a lot of those now getting tagged. That 5 year dwell you were supposed to have from your IA on active duty, that now doesn't carry over to the reserves.

The reserves is full of folks who have earned their merit badges on active duty, not just folks in VR squadrons, in addition to more than a few who earned some extra ones in the reserves. And all new folks in the reserves should get a 2 year break from mobilization if you affiliate off active duty so you don't show up and get shafted right away, you can leave after that unless you took the King's coin.

VR SELRES are still reservists and should be treated as such. If the VR squadrons are suffering because of a change in policy that puts them in the same category as the rest of the SELRES then that is the fault of the Navy Reserve and the reservists themselves who thought mobilizations was just something other folks did.

The current policy is you can drop into the IRR right up until your squadron has been notified that it's on the hook to cough up a body. Once the MOB drops, CFLSW will not positively endorse any IRR requests until the MOB has been filled. Anyone thinking of going VR, caveat emptor.

The same with signing any dotted line.

 

[Single Seat]

The reserves is full of folks who have earned their merit badges on active duty, not just folks in VR squadrons, in addition to more than a few who earned some extra ones in the reserves. And all new folks in the reserves should get a 2 year break from mobilization if you affiliate off active duty so you don't show up and get shafted right away, you can leave after that unless you took the King's coin.

VR SELRES are still reservists and should be treated as such. If the VR squadrons are suffering because of a change in policy that puts them in the same category as the rest of the SELRES then that is the fault of the Navy Reserve and the reservists themselves who thought mobilizations was just something other folks did.



The same with signing any dotted line.

No doubt, you do get a two year deferment. And I applaud anyone that sacked up and jumped on the grenade again as a SELRES. There are several folks however that closed out their time on AD with an IA. Some have passed their two year affiliation point, and should have their remaining IA deferment left. They've been told that it doesn't count. Hard for them to not feel like the goal posts have been moved. Then to be told you can't quit and go IRR, sorry but that's f'd up.

 

[subreservist]

No doubt, you do get a two year deferment. And I applaud anyone that sacked up and jumped on the grenade again as a SELRES. There are several folks however that closed out their time on AD with an IA. Some have passed their two year affiliation point, and should have their remaining IA deferment left. They've been told that it doesn't count. Hard for them to not feel like the goal posts have been moved. Then to be told you can't quit and go IRR, sorry but that's f'd up.

Is that part accurate? I believe you can still transition to IRR, but if you do under those circumstances, you can't come back SELRES (and you're supposed to be given a derogatory FITREP/EVAL as a parting gift).

Can't really feel too bad about not being able to double-dip on deferments, unless you were forced out of AD. If you chose to leave (regardless of reason), then it's kinda on the member to make sure they reap the full benefit of that (i.e. stay on AD until you used up your deferment, then take advantage of another when you sign up Reserve).

Still, the purpose of the Reserves is to act as an "insurance policy". You can't get too upset when the govt decides to collect...

 

[Gatordev]

No doubt, you do get a two year deferment. And I applaud anyone that sacked up and jumped on the grenade again as a SELRES. There are several
folks however that closed out their time on AD with an IA. Some have passed their two year affiliation point, and should have their remaining IA deferment left. They've been told that it doesn't count. Hard for them to not feel like the goal posts have been moved.

Something to keep in mind is that up until about 3 years ago, most pilots were protected if they were in a hardware unit. Those guys that may have experienced that (and there wouldn't be many, if at all) are now coming to the end of their 2 years or are now in their first (or second) year of having a target on them. Also, typically it's the junior least qualified that go, which are also the (generally speaking) newer guys in a squadron.

If guys don't want to play, and are upset that rules (whatever they may have been) changed, then they should certainly bail. We're a volunteer force and they've already served their country and done more than most. But like subreservist said, you can't really be upset at the Navy for exercising their part of the contract.

Then to be told you can't quit and go IRR, sorry but that's f'd up.

You can quit. None of this is a secret. You just need to quit BEFORE your name (or your squadron) gets tagged. For guys "just coming off AD," they have 2 years to see the train coming and make the decision.

 

[Sam I am]

I would say I sympathize but not really, after basically being off limits for the past 15 or so years from the whole mob it had to come to an end sooner or later. Welcome to the reserves.

I completely agree, the other problem I had is that a lot of guys who rode that "sanctuary" horse for those 15 years used their seniority within the unit to push MOB's to the junior new guys: usually senior O-3 and junior O-4's fresh off active duty who already had at least 2 (minimum) and usually three (sometimes already with an Active Duty IA) war time deployments under their belt. That's how we got to where we are now: a lot of senior O-5's with no war time deployments under their belt at all and are pissed off they MIGHT have to MOB and junior guys under them who resent the hell out of having to bear the brunt "getting the love". Not only that, almost every O-5 in my Sel-Res unit within CNATRA passed on being a CO when their window arrived because they didn't want to leave their non-deploy-able CNATRA flying gig after being Skipper...even if it virtually guaranteed O-6. How's that for leadership? Senior O-5 Pit Pilots that don't want command, promotion, operational orders or "Joint" Va-Cays (IA's) but then say: don't F#$K with my flight time, drills, pay or retirement...and don't inconvenience me...cause, you know, that's inconvenient. Where I come from that's called entitlement and it gets pretty stale, pretty quick...both up AND down the chain of command.

Now, to be fair, there were some really great Senior O-5's that I learned a lot from and respected as pilots and officers, but their decision to duck Command never sat well with me...especially when one particularly long in the tooth Airline dude actually had the balls to tell a newly screened CO that "Hahaha...that was dumb...now you'll have to leave...oh well, I'll still be here long after your gone..." True story. Needless to say, he wasn't one of the guys I respected.

How is mobilizing someone, a normal part of the reserves nowadays, a failure of reserve leadership? Or is the expectation management the failure?
As with many things it depends, I know folks who have all sorts of jobs including some on the executive/upper management track with a few already there. Some seem to make it work while some don't, we just had one guy switch to the IRR after finding it taking too much time. I even know one VP at a pretty large corporation but it has a heavy presence in defense contracting (not exclusive to that though) and his experience in the reserves was considered a benefit. Others have similar stories, in some cases it is even a novelty the employer seems to like. Airline types, defense contractors and GS guys are definitely over-represented but by no earns exclusive.

Each individual has to find out what works for them, their employer and the family. It isn't for everyone, just like the real Navy.

I've maneuvered and worked my way to the top and broken the inner circle...VP, Board of Directors...I could have possibly done it an maintained a drilling status, but my "street credit & organizational horse power" would not be nearly as high. I would have been a participant rather than a contributor and leader. Ironically, that's why I ended my Sel-Res tenure too: the minimum started to become the goal rather than a stepping stone to the maximum. I know my attitude and quality of output suffered in my last year. I'm at peace with my decision. I do wish I wouldn't have it held against me by folks who stayed Sel-Res or that in going IRR I somehow sold out or gave up. I'm in Naval War College right now and let me say that NWC is that most work I've ever put into giving up! lol...pretty good stuff though.

 

[Flash]

...a lot of guys who rode that "sanctuary" horse for those 15 years used their seniority within the unit to push MOB's to the junior new guys...a lot of senior O-5's with no war time deployments under their belt at all and are pissed off they MIGHT have to MOB and junior guys under them who resent the hell out of having to bear the brunt "getting the love"...

It would be poetic justice if those guys who rode the gravy train for years finally have to pay their dues. I get what your saying about the new guys having a lot of resentment but you can welcome them to the club, I saw the SELRES in the hardware units get a free pass for years (with the notable exception of one squadron) while the rest of us were the ones who cycled through the sandbox or other fun locales.

I've maneuvered and worked my way to the top and broken the inner circle...VP, Board of Directors...I could have possibly done it an maintained a drilling status, but my "street credit & organizational horse power" would not be nearly as high...that's why I ended my Sel-Res tenure too: the minimum started to become the goal rather than a stepping stone to the maximum...I'm at peace with my decision...

I have no qualms about folks transferring to the IRR, like Gator says they have already done their part, just don't do it for the wrong reasons like skating out on a MOB.

Still, the purpose of the Reserves is to act as an "insurance policy". You can't get too upset when the govt decides to collect...

If guys don't want to play, and are upset that rules (whatever they may have been) changed, then they should certainly bail. We're a volunteer force and they've already served their country and done more than most. But like subreservist said, you can't really be upset at the Navy for exercising their part of the contract.

^This.

 

[e6bflyer]

Dunno, man. I am admittedly an outsider, but I think that by 1. Saying yes to these bs requests and 2. Pushing them on selected reserves, big Navy is missing the big picture here. I think this is going to have a huge effect on the reserve force that is just not conditioned to being treated this way. It was one thing when the economy was in the shitter and we were in a relatively fresh conflict, but the economy is flourishing right now, despite what the news may say, and we are in our 14th year of war. Yes, this is what the reserves are designed for, but as with all jobs, satisfaction equals expectation minus reality. If guys are feeling the shaft, they are going to start leaving. It is science.
Intersted to see what the long term fallout of this is.

 

[Flash]

Dunno, man. I am admittedly an outsider, but I think that by 1. Saying yes to these bs requests and 2. Pushing them on selected reserves, big Navy is missing the big picture here. I think this is going to have a huge effect on the reserve force that is just not conditioned to being treated this way. It was one thing when the economy was in the shitter and we were in a relatively fresh conflict, but the economy is flourishing right now, despite what the news may say, and we are in our 14th year of war. Yes, this is what the reserves are designed for, but as with all jobs, satisfaction equals expectation minus reality. If guys are feeling the shaft, they are going to start leaving. It is science.
Intersted to see what the long term fallout of this is.

Part of my point is that the reserves has been conditioned to being treated this way after more than 10 years of this happening, at least the vast majority of it that doesn't reside in hardware units to include the VR and SAU's (I am going to hazard a guess that is who you fly with in your new job). They were among the only folks who did not have to endure this 'new normal' of regular MOB's for SELRES until very recently.

It is a little baffling to hear this nowadays since overall the number of folks getting mob'd in the reserves is way down from it's peak just a few years ago, the Navy has gotten better at sending folks to better billets (nowhere near perfect but better than just 3-4 years ago) and they have even gotten better at notifying people and cutting their tours short when necessary. So this supposed surge in folks complaining and/or leaving the SELRES all of a sudden is a little puzzling and something I have not seen in the units I am familiar with, those units don't include VR squadrons or SAU's though.

The Navy saying yes to these requests and pushing them down to the reserves? That is a whole other debate that has been going on for as long as we have been doing this 'new normal' (especially since '06 when it really ramped up), the only thing different now is a few more folks got thrown in the mix and they just happen to work with you.

 

[Randy Daytona]

I'd argue that much of the Reserve leadership is FTS and not SELRES, so I'm not sure the "airline guys" have as much say as it might be easy to pass the buck to.

FTS's job is to support SelRes, not the other way around. At least within CNATRA, you had SelRes CO's who determined policy and FTS OIC's who handled day to day tasks and coordination.

 

[SlickAg]

the Navy has gotten better at sending folks to better billets (nowhere near perfect but better than just 3-4 years ago)

An O-4 1315 I know just came back from his IA. He was a gate guard at a FOB in Afghanistan, not in a supervisory role mind you, just another dude pulling guard duty with a bunch of Army soldiers and BU2s from random NOSCs…

But hey, CNATRA reservists have to contribute to the fight too, right?

 

[Flash]

An O-4 1315 I know just came back from his IA. He was a gate guard at a FOB in Afghanistan, not in a supervisory role mind you, just another dude pulling guard duty with a bunch of Army soldiers and BU2s from random NOSCs…

Getting better, by no means perfect. And someone has to be in charge of the inmates running the asylum....

But hey, CNATRA reservists have to contribute to the fight too, right?

Yup, they signed the dotted line like the rest of us. What makes them so different or special then the rest?

 

[SlickAg]

Getting better, by no means perfect. And someone has to be in charge of the inmates running the asylum....

That's my whole point, he wasn't in charge of anything. He was just another dude with a rifle, albeit a better paid one. The Navy is so concerned about cutting costs everywhere else that four guys can't get a rental car on a cross country and have to share hotel rooms yet we're willing to pay an O-4 vice an E-5 to check IDs? Was there nothing he could have done in-country to take advantage of his 14+ years of aviation experience? Don't think that this hasn't poisoned the well a little when our buddy gets mob'ed to go "support the war" because Big Navy Reserve "needs" him, and then he does nothing but guard a bunch of operators for almost a year. Is this an isolated case? I sure hope so, but it seems kind of par for the course.

Yup, they signed the dotted line like the rest of us. What makes them so different or special then the rest?

I think this goes back to the reason why the SAUs and VR squadrons are drying up. The Navy NEEDS 1315s (or 1375 in some VTs) to fulfill roles that the Navy has spent a lot of time, effort, and money training them for. Lots of guys have volunteered for mobs and the head sheds, from my experience, have tried their hardest to ensure that guys are actually volunteering. I think if guys were getting mob'ed into useful, critical positions then there wouldn't be such an uproar, but from purely anecdotal evidence, I haven't seen that. However, I'm just a know-nothing LT.

This much I do know: there aren't a lot of my buddies who are actively pursuing career path jobs in hopes of going back to the fleet. If they haven't been shown the door already, the resignations letters are drafted waiting for the second they can press send. Not a lot of guys planning on taking the bonus, and almost everyone I know has taken some leave to get their ATP. Including leadership. I think a vast majority of guys would love to go SELRES and continue flying, but the writing is on the wall that when mobs come, dudes are jumping ship. And sure, they can have an emergency hiring board and delay the problem another 2 years or so…but it's a band-aid at best.

 

[nittany03]

That's my whole point, he wasn't in charge of anything. He was just another dude with a rifle, albeit a better paid one. The Navy is so concerned about cutting costs everywhere else that four guys can't get a rental car on a cross country and have to share hotel rooms yet we're willing to pay an O-4 vice an E-5 to check IDs? Was there nothing he could have done in-country to take advantage of his 14+ years of aviation experience? Don't think that this hasn't poisoned the well a little when our buddy gets mob'ed to go "support the war" because Big Navy Reserve "needs" him, and then he does nothing but guard a bunch of operators for almost a year. Is this an isolated case? I sure hope so, but it seems kind of par for the course.

For all we bitch about IGs and Congressionals, that is just begging for one. If that's true, someone in charge of slating people committed at a minimum financial misconduct paying an O-4 aviator to do that instead of MOBing an E-4/5.

 

[Gatordev]

FTS's job is to support SelRes, not the other way around. At least within CNATRA, you had SelRes CO's who determined policy and FTS OIC's who handled day to day tasks and coordination.

I'm talking macro not micro. The SELRES CO makes policy within the SAU (or squadron), but not at the higher, business rules level (ie, staff...RCC, CNRFC, CNAFR, etc). I'd argue that the majority of the people in those roles making Big Reserve policy are FTS or career SELTARs and not your conventional 13x5.