Navy Dedicated SAR Squadrons

[Griz882]

Got it, but this seems to be a quarterly thing for Chuck. Talk to some AF types telling fishing stories with their 10k hour APU turn patches and then say Navy sucks.

Does HSC have issues? Yes. Merge a couple of communities on top of change of focus from the desert to at sea and of course, there’s going to be disruption and drama. RQS went through similar issues being bounced between AFSOC and TAC.

Anyone who thinks we aren’t planning on trying to rescue our folks organically is plain wrong.

I concur entirely. In my mind it is more a matter of poor Navy “optics.”

 

[ChuckMK23]

and then say Navy sucks.

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Never said that and merely parroting anecdotes from the various HSC threads on the challenges folks are seeing.

And I don't think the AF is pure-white-snow either. AF tends to boast a little more about capabilities and their wins and Navy tends to be more quiet on capability and achievements.

But there is a lot of white space/vacuum from the Navy helo community on the subject.

 

[Ventus]

I'll just say this. I think you'll think about it differently as you approach your MSR, getting close to 20. Do you really want to take a pay cut, and be the "new guy" at that point? Maybe so, just pointing out some realities. There is a lot of info on this site about pros/cons of different greener pastures. Not arguing against or for, but sometimes they're not always greener.

I have no doubt my interests will change as I go through my first couple of tours. Honestly I feel like I've always been the new guy. Still waiting to really find my group of people you know?

Air Guard and Air Force Reserve units continue to fly the HH-60G (transitioning to HH-60W)

California, Alaska and New York ANG

And Patrick AFB, Davis Monthan AFB, Portland OR, for Reserves.

I've done a lot of research on these guys. They can go a lot farther out than the CG to effect a rescue because they have the sister C-130 refueler squadrons.
Plus the Reserve dudes out of Patrick AFB are the only ones that train to go rescue astronauts in the case of a bailout before negative return. Not that it's ever happened before but the fact that we have that capability is still pretty cool to think about.

Circling back to this. A couple points:

-Don't go to Guam just because you want to "do SAR". Yes they do stand SAR Alert and get more rescues. However, it's an island in the pacific (good and bad, but isolating), their deployments are different, and you're (for better or worse) far away from the motherships of North Island and Norfolk. I knew a lot of people who went there and couldn't wait to leave.
-Norfolk, North Island, and Japan are actually all good places.
-You'll learn more in the fleet, but last I heard (and it'll change again I'm sure), you have to "self select" out of production jobs like FRS/VT/HT before you could apply for Station SAR. This is a risk and you could end up at a desk. I'll say VT IP was some of the most fun flying I did and really rewarding, plus you get to manifest being the instructor you wanted to fly with. I still keep in touch with a handful of my on wings and offer them the occasional career advice.
-I launched on SARs off the boat, but never got a save. I don't consider my helo career less than because of it.
-As others have mentioned, Coast Guard DCA is a tightrope walk with a lot of "maybes" and you've got 8 years of MSR to run out before then. Total YOS might be an issue you can't get a waiver for. Things can absolutely change between now and then with regards to manning, but at the moment PERS won't let you go a day earlier than they have to, and they're using every tool in the box to send and keep people on the boat.
-Copy and paste the above for ANG/AF Reserve. My neighbor (former HSM, VT IP, now 121 pilot and VT Reservist) has been "accepted" to the local KC-135 unit for 9 months now and still waiting for paperwork from AF HQ. Likely not a primary plan unfortunately, unless you find a gig in the meantime.
-With 121 hiring, HEMS and LE helicopter flying is opening up more, might be worth considering
-No idea what things will look like in 8-10 years when you get close to 20, but settling down somewhere you choose and flying turns to the Caribbean for spring break or Europe might sound nice. Endless moves and deployments take their toll, even if there's fun mixed in.

Regardless of all of the above, enjoy your first sea tour wherever you end up. There's literally nothing like it.

-I'm definitely on the same page with you here. If I was already married, I would definitely consider Guam just because all of the things I like to do in my personal time other than snow ski are in Guam. Scuba, trail riding, kiteboarding, surfing, etc. But as a single dude in my 30's, I think i'll stick to stateside for now. I came from Cherry Point on the enlisted side and I had reservations going back to the East Coast but Norfolk is VERY different and it's growing on me for sure.
-I am not planning to self-select out of being an IP. My opinion will probably change after flying the 60 for a bit and getting into tactics, but flying the T-6 again is very attractive to me. Especially getting more fixed wing time. Plus the T-6 is essentially a sports car in the sky. I do really like the idea of being the IP that you always wanted to fly with.
-Honestly the Coast Guard option is attractive to me more so along the lines of location. It has places I would consider settling down in. If the AF Guard or Reserve can offer the same thing, I would highly consider them. I would be flying KC-135's right now for the Utah ANG if COVID didn't happen. I was all set to interview and they pretty much said they wanted me before I went out there but had to postpone their hiring process. They finally messaged me afterwards saying they were ready for me but at that point I was 4 weeks deep into Navy OCS.

I also need to find the right thread to ask some TPS questions.

 

[SynixMan]

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Never said that and merely parroting anecdotes from the various HSC threads on the challenges folks are seeing.

And I don't think the AF is pure-white-snow either. AF tends to boast a little more about capabilities and their wins and Navy tends to be more quiet on capability and achievements.

But there is a lot of white space/vacuum from the Navy helo community on the subject.

I think you're thinking too literally about CSAR as one scenario. There's a big spectrum of threat levels and time space, and each service (Army, Navy, Coast Guard, Air Force, USMC) has some parts to play in the puzzle.

Unfortunately, as others we've often mentioned, the HS/HC merger, HCS's legacy, HSC balling up some airframes in the dirt, and the downstream effects of a 20 year war in landlocked countries all add up to a bad picture of Navy CSAR. I'd say reality is somewhere in the gray area.

 

[Griz882]

…. Norfolk is VERY different and it's growing on me for sure.

That ain’t Norfolk growing on you brother, that’s Tidewater Swamp Mold.

 

[cfam]

I think you're thinking too literally about CSAR as one scenario. There's a big spectrum of threat levels and time space, and each service (Army, Navy, Coast Guard, Air Force, USMC) has some parts to play in the puzzle.

Unfortunately, as others we've often mentioned, the HS/HC merger, HCS's legacy, HSC balling up some airframes in the dirt, and the downstream effects of a 20 year war in landlocked countries all add up to a bad picture of Navy CSAR. I'd say reality is somewhere in the gray area.

What you said.

I will allow that (from what I’ve seen) the Air Force does train more consistently (at least at the Red Flag/WSINT integration level) to higher threat CSAR than the Navy does at AWF, although the AWF I did in 2022 demonstrated that the Navy is certainly moving in that direction (e.g. running CSAR in a contested environment underneath an A/A fight or IADS rollback).

In those scenarios the AF was also generally better about having a dedicated comms relay to the RV/a platform working as the CSAR quarterback, (generally in the form of an HC-130), whereas on the Navy side it seemed to be more of a relay of opportunity without dedicated RESCORT until the larger fight was complete.

 

[DanMa1156]

What you said.

I will allow that (from what I’ve seen) the Air Force does train more consistently (at least at the Red Flag/WSINT integration level) to higher threat CSAR than the Navy does at AWF, although the AWF I did in 2022 demonstrated that the Navy is certainly moving in that direction (e.g. running CSAR in a contested environment underneath an A/A fight or IADS rollback).

In those scenarios the AF was also generally better about having a dedicated comms relay to the RV/a platform working as the CSAR quarterback, (generally in the form of an HC-130), whereas on the Navy side it seemed to be more of a relay of opportunity without dedicated RESCORT until the larger fight was complete.

I’ll leave it this: it’s not supposed to be that way and I haven’t personally seen that as an RV at AWF or other exercises. Of course, terrain and the enemy get a vote, but it’s not (supposed to be) set up that way.

 

[DanMa1156]

That ain’t Norfolk growing on you brother, that’s Tidewater Swamp Mold.

I genuinely went to Norfolk with a good attitude and loved my squadron (thank God, the only thing I liked about the area really). I also couldn’t wait to leave Norfolk. I was so over it and never want to go back, particularly with school age children.

 

[cfam]

I’ll leave it this: it’s not supposed to be that way and I haven’t personally seen that as an RV at AWF or other exercises. Of course, terrain and the enemy get a vote, but it’s not (supposed to be) set up that way.

Agreed, that’s not what right looks like, because when it’s properly done it works well. It’s not an issue with HSC/CSAR TTP, just task prioritization (mainly on the part of VFA).

I just want to make it clear that I’m not calling out your community’s execution or TTPs, but more so how Naval Aviation practices integrating CSAR into the overall fight. I’d love to have a more in-depth discussion, but best for other forums.

 

[Gatordev]

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Never said that and merely parroting anecdotes from the various HSC threads on the challenges folks are seeing.

Chuck, I think part of the problem is you are equating HSC as the bulk or majority of what Navy helicopters do. We need the Sierras, as they're integral to the overall mission success, but there's a another huge portion of mission sets being executed by another Navy rotary community. It just seems like, to me, you just haven't taken the time to learn about it.

But there is a lot of white space/vacuum from the Navy helo community on the subject.

In large part because a lot of the successes that are occurring involve subjects that generally aren't discussed openly. The Houthi shoots were a fantastic win for HSM, but there's a lot of other important stuff they do that doesn't sound near as sexy.

 

[jmcquate]

From talking to a buddy who works for JPRA a couple of years age. He said Navy CSAR is limited by the lack of in air refueling capabilities.

 

[ChuckMK23]

From talking to a buddy who works for JPRA a couple of years age. He said Navy CSAR is limited by the lack of in air refueling capabilities.

Which would lead me to believe that strike planners would set up a designated FARP somewhere that is feet-dry and stage a few MH-60S there.

 

[Griz882]

From talking to a buddy who works for JPRA a couple of years age. He said Navy CSAR is limited by the lack of in air refueling capabilities.

With apologies to Johnny Cash…

I hear them plopters a-coming,
They’re coming around the bend.
And they all thought that COD’ing
Would be easier than sin.

Now they’re doing doing combat SAR
With them refueling probes
And I’m gonna be feet wet
Before anybody knows.

 

[sevenhelmet]

Which would lead me to believe that strike planners would set up a designated FARP somewhere that is feet-dry and stage a few MH-60S there.

Or just base them in theater. I have a buddy who deployed to Iraq doing CSAR and CASEVAC in the 60S.

 

[HSMPBR]

I'm going to blow Chuck's mind and mention that the AF has even integrated Romeo into some of their CSAR exercises in the past.

Tactical Leadershippe Programme should keep that happening in the West Med as long as we want to keep playing.

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