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Navy Dedicated SAR Squadrons

ChuckMK23

ChuckMK23

FERS and TSP contributor!
pilot
HuggyU2 said:
The Air National Guard has three SAR Wings: Long Island, Moffett Field, and Anchorage. I believe all three fly the HC-130 and the HH-60G.

With their A2A refueling capability, they can effect rescues as far as ~1,000 nm offshore.View attachment 40195
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I work closely with a retired AF HH-60 guy - and one of the things that impresses me about helo CSAR/PR ops in the AF is that the mission is surrounded by established doctrine. There are a whole chain of assets involved in the rescue mission - and the aircraft are all highly equipped for the mission. Refuelers, close air support players, C2 aircraft, access to near /real time ISR, etc. The helo is the final link in the chain for them. They do a fair amount of shipboard training too - not just US but allied navies as well.
 
ChuckMK23

ChuckMK23

FERS and TSP contributor!
pilot
insanebikerboy said:
I’m curious what and how you think the Navy does CSAR?
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My impression from anecdotes posted here is the mission competes with many that HSC has in their readiness matrix - and that it gets a bare minimum of resources and support with the understanding that it's not a real world mission would likely encounter. Additionally - I have to idea what happens at a CVW/CSG ops level - I assume this is a part of pre-strike planning.

But I have 2 AF helo dudes as collegues - one retired and one AD - and over many beers they shared the level of doctrine and coordination that goes into the rescue planning of a strike mission in AF land - meaning that its baked into the planning integratled to the mission objectives. Where the various rescue resources will be staged, orbit, placement wrt WEZ, etc and the deep coordination that goes on in a rescue effort between the various players - and how they have a sense of being on one team. The AF seems to pride itself on this.

I was impressed by all this - I hope in Navy land similar constructs exist.

Maybe someone can chime in and relates some of the UNCLAS aspects of Navy CSG doctrine with respect to Combat Rescue of aircrew.
 
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insanebikerboy

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
None
Contributor
ChuckMK23 said:
My impression from anecdotes posted here is the mission competes with many that HSC has in their readiness matrix - and that it gets a bare minimum of resources and support with the understanding that it's not a real world mission would likely encounter. Additionally - I have to idea what happens at a CVW/CSG ops level - I assume this is a part of pre-strike planning.

But I have 2 AF helo dudes as collegues - one retired and one AD - and over many beers they shared the level of doctrine and coordination that goes into the rescue planning of a strike mission in AF land - meaning that its baked into the planning integratled to the mission objectives. Where the various rescue resources will be staged, orbit, placement wrt WEZ, etc and the deep coordination that goes on in a rescue effort between the various players - and how they have a sense of being on one team. The AF seems to pride itself on this.

I was impressed by all this - I hope in Navy land similar constructs exist.

Maybe someone can chime in and relates some of the UNCLAS aspects of Navy CSG doctrine with respect to Combat Rescue of aircrew.
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I think you're confusing doctrine with tactics. All branches follow JP 3.50, but the individual service TTPs may vary.

That said, having participated in Navy and AF CSAR, the two are virtually identical, from planning to execution.
 
DanMa1156

DanMa1156

Is it baseball season yet?
pilot
Contributor
ChuckMK23 said:
My impression from anecdotes posted here is the mission competes with many that HSC has in their readiness matrix - and that it gets a bare minimum of resources and support with the understanding that it's not a real world mission would likely encounter. Additionally - I have to idea what happens at a CVW/CSG ops level - I assume this is a part of pre-strike planning.

But I have 2 AF helo dudes as collegues - one retired and one AD - and over many beers they shared the level of doctrine and coordination that goes into the rescue planning of a strike mission in AF land - meaning that its baked into the planning integratled to the mission objectives. Where the various rescue resources will be staged, orbit, placement wrt WEZ, etc and the deep coordination that goes on in a rescue effort between the various players - and how they have a sense of being on one team. The AF seems to pride itself on this.

I was impressed by all this - I hope in Navy land similar constructs exist.

Maybe someone can chime in and relates some of the UNCLAS aspects of Navy CSG doctrine with respect to Combat Rescue of aircrew.
Click to expand...
This sounds shockingly similar to the level of detail Navy Airwings put into CSAR/PR planning.

Yes, we do fly other missions. Yes, they compete for times, but believe it or not, the skill sets are similar, the planning process is similar, and the stick and rudder work isn’t all that different.

I am confident that those who go on VERTEP dets are the ones who have the quickest increases / gains of stick skills and CRM. After that, they just need to learn to plan and execute to the SEAWOLF standard.
 
Griz882

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
ChuckMK23 said:
My impression from anecdotes posted here is the mission competes with many that HSC has in their readiness matrix - and that it gets a bare minimum of resources and support with the understanding that it's not a real world mission would likely encounter. Additionally - I have to idea what happens at a CVW/CSG ops level - I assume this is a part of pre-strike planning.

But I have 2 AF helo dudes as collegues - one retired and one AD - and over many beers they shared the level of doctrine and coordination that goes into the rescue planning of a strike mission in AF land - meaning that its baked into the planning integratled to the mission objectives. Where the various rescue resources will be staged, orbit, placement wrt WEZ, etc and the deep coordination that goes on in a rescue effort between the various players - and how they have a sense of being on one team. The AF seems to pride itself on this.

I was impressed by all this - I hope in Navy land similar constructs exist.

Maybe someone can chime in and relates some of the UNCLAS aspects of Navy CSG doctrine with respect to Combat Rescue of aircrew.
Click to expand...
Just to provide a little covering fire for @ChuckMK23, it is worth noting that he is probably hearing about AF doctrine which is the branch specific doctrine that aligns under the JP - I think the latest iteration is Air Force Doctrine Document 2-1.6. I expect the Navy has something similar that I don’t know about. Tactics, techniques, and procedures would then slide under that at wing/squadron level. Of course this is all focused on COMBAT search and rescue, a vastly different animal than a Search & Rescue mission. In the end, were we to go to war in the Pacific (or any area where we aren’t guaranteed an airfield within a few hundred miles of the fight) the Navy has two choices…spool up very fast while building actual CSAR assets or surrender significant deck and bunk space to accommodate USAF resources.
 
hscs

hscs

Registered User
pilot
Got it, but this seems to be a quarterly thing for Chuck. Talk to some AF types telling fishing stories with their 10k hour APU turn patches and then say Navy sucks.

Does HSC have issues? Yes. Merge a couple of communities on top of change of focus from the desert to at sea and of course, there’s going to be disruption and drama. RQS went through similar issues being bounced between AFSOC and TAC.

Anyone who thinks we aren’t planning on trying to rescue our folks organically is plain wrong.
 
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