Medal of Honor criteria and award inflation

[phrogdriver]

I am not saying that current warfighters are not performing any fewer acts of heroism, but from everything I can tell, the current war is no where near as intense as Vietnam, WW2, and the like, and that explains why so few have been awarded. The situations that lend themselves to heroics are much fewer and there are far fewer personnel involved. The 'surge' in Iraq means that there's what, 160,000 troops on the ground? That's a lot, but the Vietnam conflict had over half a million and WW2 had something like 12 million.

The scale seems to be appropriate, I think.

To some degree, but 3 is what, less than 2% as many were awarded as in Vietnam? I'll admit there is a different mission, different intensity, and fewer boots on the ground, but OIF/OEF are more than 1/50th of a Vietnam. I'm just using that as an example.

 

[FLYTPAY]

I would add this Marine to the list of MOH considerations as well:

http://www.defenselink.mil/home/faceofdefense/fod/2006-08/f20060804a.html

My favorite part is how be K-barred the insurgent!

 

[phrogpilot73]

I knew Capt. Chontosh when I was at TBS. He was instructing at the Infantry Officer's Course at the time. The man was down right scary.

That pretty much jives with what I've heard. I met one of his FACs at some point (don't remember where), and he said that he was about to go into a building they were taking fire from, looked at his FAC and said "you with me?" Being that he was an aviator that thinks things through, he said "hell no." Apparently, after that - he cracked his neck and said "I live for this shit" then went over the stone fence and went to work. He is most deserving of the Navy Cross. Hardly a glory hound.

 

[wink]

My favorite part is how be K-barred the insurgent!

That story, including the knifing, is very similar to Bellavia's, which probably happened just on the other side of town in the same battle.

 

[FLYTPAY]

That story, including the knifing, is very similar to Bellavia's, which probably happened just on the other side of town in the same battle.

I had a friend from The Citadel who died in that battle 1stLt Dan Malcolm.

 

[mmx1]

To some degree, but 3 is what, less than 2% as many were awarded as in Vietnam? I'll admit there is a different mission, different intensity, and fewer boots on the ground, but OIF/OEF are more than 1/50th of a Vietnam. I'm just using that as an example.

I'll throw another theory out there. Your typical MOH citation has an individual salvaging a FUBAR situation - outnumbered, overrun, POW, grenade in your midst, etc - that you'd rather not be in to begin with. If all goes well, you shouldn't need or warrant MOH heroics.

Since we've got a bigger tactical advantage than we had in Vietnam or WWII, fewer opportunities for MOH heroics arise, for which we should be grateful. For every MOH citation there's probably another untold instance which didn't end as well.

 

[FLYTPAY]

If all goes well, you shouldn't need or warrant MOH heroics.

Since we've got a bigger tactical advantage than we had in Vietnam or WWII, fewer opportunities for MOH heroics arise, for which we should be grateful. For every MOH citation there's probably another untold instance which didn't end as well.

+1 for tactical insight and vision!

 

[pourts]

Here's an interesting side note, when General "e-tool" Smith dedicated Gonzales Hall at TBS in 2007 he said he could have tried to write Gonzales up for the two separate instances that were 3 days apart, but was afraid that Gonzales would only get 2 Navy Crosses. So, he combined the whole week of events and Gonzales got the MOH.

http://www.homeofheroes.com/moh/citations_1960_vn/gonzalez_alfredo.html

Another thing: it is a shame that it takes so long for the medals to be awarded when they are deserved. What is the name of the Marine who smothered an enemy grenade and died and still hasn't gotten either a MOH or Navy Cross yet after 3 years? Same thing with Mitchell, who got the Navy Cross 2 years later, and had already left the Corps.

I think there is something to be said for the fact that we have more of a tactical advantage than we did in Vietnam or WWII. But, with all the stuff that went down in Falluja, it seems crazy that an MOH hasn't come out of that battle.

 

[hscs]

Doesn't suprise me when it takes over 7 months to get a strike/flight approved by 5th Fleet....

 

[FLYTPAY]

Pfc. Ross McGinnis Receives MOH

Pfc. Ross McGinnis jumped on a grenade, giving his life for 4 buddies.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080602/ap_on_go_pr_wh/medal_of_honor

 

[ea6bflyr]

From a Newsweek article last month (http://www.newsweek.com/id/107585):

"Only two other Iraq vets have received the Medal of Honor, compared with 245 GIs who fought in Vietnam and 464 in World War II. Lesser medals have also been in short supply. Pentagon officials say the disparity has to do with the nature of combat in Iraq: less face-to-face fighting and fewer occasions for valor."

"Number of Medals Awarded

World War I 124
World War II 464
Korean War 131
Vietnam War 245
GWOT 3"

Now compare this list with the one below:

WAR DEATHS
World War I 53,402
World War II 291,557
Korean War 33,741
Vietnam War 47,424
GWOT 2,333

See any trends?

-ea6bflyr

 

[Flash]

Now compare this list with the one below:

WAR DEATHS
World War I 53,402
World War II 291,557
Korean War 33,741
Vietnam War 47,424
GWOT 2,333

See any trends?

-ea6bflyr

The Somalia battle had 18 deaths, 2 MOH's. Doesn't always correspond.

 

[FlyinSpy]

Now compare this list with the one below:

WAR DEATHS
World War I 53,402
World War II 291,557
Korean War 33,741
Vietnam War 47,424
GWOT 2,333

See any trends?

-ea6bflyr

Although a founding precept of this forum is that "there will be no math", I couldn't resist the urge. The following chart shows "Deaths per MoH"; kind of macabre, but is a great example of what the underlying numbers can tell us about now vs then. Although definitely more stingy than Viet Nam, numbers are more or less on par with WWII. Gives you a sense of just how many casualties there were in that war.

 

[xj220]

I think that the military is actually being much stingier with at least the top 2 medals than it has in the past. To some extent, this is good, but in our rush to keep the integrity of these awards, we're making the MOH a "grenade jumping medal" vice a medal for warriors who've risked their lives exhibiting extreme valor. I think Lt Brian Chontosh's and SgtMaj Kasal's actions at least warranted MOH consideration. I don't think we've had an MOH recipient since Vietnam who has actually survived his actions. A little more reasonableness on these two awards and a little more stinginess on Bronze Stars on down is warranted.

Had to make a little change.

 

[SemperGumbi]

What abou tthis: Can you even IMAGINE a guy getting 2 MOHs these days? Me neither.

I second all thoughts about more MOH, less Bronze/Silver Stars. A bronze star for being good at paperwork? Sad.