McKiernan OUT ... McChrystal IN

[Uncle Fester]

Well, one thing that I've seen pointed out in several writings on the Iraq Surge (most recently Thomas Ricks' The Gamble) is that not once in the ongoing wars have any commanders been relieved for failure to perform. I don't believe anyone above regimental command has been releievd for cause, unless you count being fired-upwards like GEN Casey (who became Army Chief of Staff), or fired for political reasons, like ADM Fallon, which I don't.

A commanding general's mission is to win the war. Blame has nothing to do with it, nor is it saying they're failures as soldiers or as human beings. It may simply be the commander in question is not the man best suited to the mission, and of course it's a difficult problem to resolve. But simply giving a general who hasn't carried out his mission an end-of-tour medal and promoting him like it doesn't really matter seems to be a funny way to fight a war.

 

[Brett327]

No, eddie ... it's 'cause we're fighting a war.

You're over thinking this.

It will cost American lives at the end of the day. You can't expect someone to "fight to win" with purpose & determination when he/she knows that their actions -- legitimate actions taken in the heat of battle -- will be called into question every time the enemy squeals "that hurts". You don't let the enemy call the shots and have YOU jumping through hoops w/ his media propaganda barrages ...

But it's not the enemy that is "squealing." I understand that the lines often get blurred, and that civilian casualties are inevitable in almost any form of warfare, but the civilian population and the government of Afghanistan - ostensibly the people we're trying to help - have every right to complain when we kill 100+ alleged innocents. This is not the scorched earth warfare of yesteryear and these kinds of events matter in the final analysis. I know you want to dismiss all of this and say, "Bring all of them to their knees!" Well, no matter how many times you say it, that ain't the way it is and never will be in this conflict. Like it, or not, we're engaged in nation-building and winning "hearts & minds." Civilian casualties matter. At the end of the day, if the guys who prosecuted this target were following applicable ROE and used good judgment, they'll be fine and can walk away from whatever "investigation" with their heads held high.

Brett

 

[Jim123]

I don't believe anyone above regimental command has been releievd for cause, unless you count being fired-upwards like GEN Casey (who became Army Chief of Staff), or fired for political reasons, like ADM Fallon, which I don't.

Agreed, couple thoughts for you-

1)
GEN Casey seemed to "get" COIN (seems to be a popular phrase), so politically he had that going for him. He might have disagreed with the surge strategy but I think he was otherwise onboard with the latest school of thought* on COIN. Best example, when he was MNF-I there was his "COIN U" course in Baghdad c2004-6, for units newly arrived in-country. Two ways to look at this: Glass is half-empty- that material should have been in a syllabus at NTC (workups for the Army)** instead of taking already deployed units to give them the training they need. Glass is half-full- our military doctrine may have been behind the times but institutionally speaking we had the structure and right people to adapt, even last-minute/ad-hoc/in-theater.

2)
LTG Sanchez (Casey's immediate predecessor in Iraq) was more or less forced into retirement... Abu Ghraib and all that other stuff... This is not the same thing as relieved either though.


* "latest school of thought" not saying I agree or disagree, just pointing out politics and oh by the way we have systems like war colleges and professional journals to debate and develop our doctrine.

** The workups scenarios we do in the Navy evolve over the years to reflect a changing world... not to say that these scenarios are perfect either.

 

[A4sForever]

.... Like it, or not, we're engaged in nation-building and winning "hearts & minds."...

As always, while I respect YOUR opinion, I just don't buy into it in this situation.

It -- nation building & 'hearts and minds' -- doesn't work. I don't give a flying fuck @ 3rd/4th rate countries who's biggest cash crop is poppies.

It wastes American blood.

I don't like it.

The next guy to get fired will be Patraeus (sp?) as he's got a 'going downtown' mentality. That 'tude doesn't fly w/ this current bunch of civilian masters. In the end, we'll ditch Afghanistan and Iraq will give us the finger (no purple dye) as the Iranians assume defacto control of the Gulf region. All for nothing, once again. No hearts & minds ... it doesn't work w/ stone-age mentalities.

Fight our own fights, kill the bastards, win our own battles, come home -- until we have to go 'over there' and do it again. There seems to be a cycle there.

 

[Brett327]

It -- nation building & 'hearts and minds' doesn't work. I don't give a flying fuck @ 3rd/4th rate countries who's biggest cash crop is poppies.

It wastes American blood.

I don't like it.

The next guy to get fired w/ be Patraeus (sp?). In the end, we'll ditch Afghanistan and Iraq will give us the finger (no purple dye) as the Iranians assume defacto control of the Gulf region. All for nothing, once again. No hearts & minds ... it doesn't work w/ stone-age mentalities.

Fight our own fights, kill the bastards, win our own battles, come home until we have to go 'over there' and do it again. There seems to be a cycle there.

Well, like I said, "it" is the way it is, and whether it works remains to be seen. We have to operate within the confines of the geo-political reality we're given as warfighters, not on some idealistic throwback to "the greatest generation." Those days are gone - have been for 50+ years. Time to move on.

Brett

 

[A4sForever]

Well, like I said, "it" is the way it is, and whether it works remains to be seen. We have to operate within the confines of the geo-political reality we're given as warfighters, not on some idealistic throwback to "the greatest generation." Those days are gone - have been for 50+ years. Time to move on.

Brett

Like I say -- while I appreciate YOUR opinion and always respect it; I'm just not buying into a 'limitations' view of the world as seen through a USGI gunsight.

"Those days are gone" -- only to the degree we let 'em go.

Maybe there's a reason why the 'greatest generation' was called the 'greatest'??? They were focused, determined, and knew what had to be done. And yet -- they had no where near the high tech, the skill sets, and the resources that we like to tell ourselves we possess today.

It's never 'time to move on' from principles and/or what works. If you do -- you will lose. Every time ... and for 'trying' and failing -- every time -- potential enemies will hold you in disdain and disrespect you even more than had you just 'stayed home' ...

 

[Brett327]

Like I say -- while I appreciate YOUR opinion and always respect it; I'm just not buying into a 'limitations' view of the world as seen through a USGI gunsight.

"Those days are gone" -- only to the degree we let 'em go.

Maybe there's a reason why the 'greatest generation' was called the 'greatest'??? They were focused, determined, and knew what had to be done. And yet -- they had no where near the high tech, the skill sets, and the resources that we like to tell ourselves we possess today.

It's never 'time to move on' from principles and/or what works. If you do -- you will lose. Every time ... and for 'trying' and failing -- every time -- potential enemies will hold you in disdain and disrespect you even more than had you just 'stayed home' ...

We're going to have to agree to disagree. Things are the way they are because the world has changed, not simply because we choose to do things one way or another. We don't operate in a vacuum and can't act (or wish) like we do. Our foes have changed and adapted - so must we all.

Brett

 

[wlawr005]

Like I say -- while I appreciate YOUR opinion and always respect it; I'm just not buying into a 'limitations' view of the world as seen through a USGI gunsight.

"Those days are gone" -- only to the degree we let 'em go.

Maybe there's a reason why the 'greatest generation' was called the 'greatest'??? They were focused, determined, and knew what had to be done. And yet -- they had no where near the high tech, the skill sets, and the resources that we like to tell ourselves we possess today.

It's never 'time to move on' from principles and/or what works. If you do -- you will lose. Every time ... and for 'trying' and failing -- every time -- potential enemies will hold you in disdain and disrespect you even more than had you just 'stayed home' ...

+1. It's a shame that with all of our military might, our simple enemy has us on our knees with the media. Al-Q and the Taliban don't need more guns or bombs because they have found a way to keep Americans torn apart in our own country. The greatest part about the greatest generation was the fact that we stuck together and didn't give a shit whether Reuters or Al-Jazeera said that we bombed a school or not. We used to strike fear in the hearts of aggressors because of our aggressive nature...since Viet Nam, we somehow feel responsible for that nature and try appeasing the people we are fighting.

It sucks that the bad guys hide in schools...but that shouldn't stop us from stopping them. Maybe if we showed them we meant business, the "civilians" would stop letting them hide there.

Teddy Roosevelt said that we should speak softly and carry a BIG stick, he didn't say "apologize once said stick is applied"...

 

[TrunkMonkey]

One of the foundations of the Pashtun "honor code" in Afghanistan is blood feuds or the idea of revenge-based killing. These feuds carry down the generations for thousands of years whenever an insult to the family or tribe's honor is percieved.
With this cultural idea, entrenched and carried out since prehistoric times, things like flattening a village with 1000 pounders because a high value target might be hiding there are not going to win us the war. All it does is breed more people who would gladly throw away their own lives as long as they know they're taking a few of us with them.

Not that I have any idea what the answer is. But, I do think it lies somewhere closer to the COIN end of the spectrum, and further from kill 'em all.

 

[mmx1]

The next guy to get fired will be Patraeus (sp?) as he's got a 'going downtown' mentality. That 'tude doesn't fly w/ this current bunch of civilian masters.

Right. That "'tude" doesn't fly....which is why they just nominated an aggressive snake-eater to replace McKiernan.

Unless you mean "going downtown" literally in Linebacker style....in which case I have no idea where you picked up that notion of Petraeus.

 

[A4sForever]

Right. That "'tude" doesn't fly....

Unless you mean "going downtown" literally in Linebacker style....in which case I have no idea where you picked up that notion of Petraeus.

*Sigh* .....

*Oy-vey* .... of course it doesn't have anything to do w/ Linebacker I or II or Linebacker-500 ...

When used herein; it was meant to be a reflection of someone's 'mental attitude' ... or to use the current vernacular: 'tude' .... I wanna' be 'hip' at all costs ...

Do a little 'study' ( I could have said 'stupid study', but I won't as I don't want to unnecessarily emasculate you ) on Gen. David Petraeus and 'the Iraq surge' ... mebbe you'll see where I'm coming from ... ???

Suggestion: you don't want to know from where I "picked up (my) notion(s)" ... that would imply you MIGHT able to get inside my head ...

You don't wanna' go there -- as you won't come back alive.



*edit* ... time to squeeze some limes ... the GREAT equalizer.

 

[exhelodrvr]

This seems like a reasonable move, from what I have read about the backgrounds of the two individuals.

 

[Jim123]

This seems like a reasonable move

What, squeezing limes?

Wait, sorry, you meant something else. This post has no value-added.

 

[TurnandBurn55]

Like I say -- while I appreciate YOUR opinion and always respect it; I'm just not buying into a 'limitations' view of the world as seen through a USGI gunsight.

"Those days are gone" -- only to the degree we let 'em go.

I think that this is an important discussion... and, I ask this question with complete sincerity..

Do you think that there are any MAJOR changes that have or need to have taken place since the Vietnam war??

Or is it truly "the more things change, the more they stay the same"??

 

[Flash]

It sucks that the bad guys hide in schools...but that shouldn't stop us from stopping them. Maybe if we showed them we meant business, the "civilians" would stop letting them hide there.

Like it or not, COIN doesn't work that way. That kind of attitude got us in big trouble at the beginning of OIF and it took a while to fix. Look up General Odierno, he is a pretty good example of the evolution in the Army's thinking the past few years.

Plus, what do you expect the civilians to do? One dude in a house ain't going to be able to kick out 25 heavily armed Taliban. And if he does they can always come back and kill him later, after we go back to base.