Marine F-22s

[phrogpilot73]

My honest question is what organic tacair in the MEU brings to the table. Are MEU's that seperated from the rest of our joint forces that they absolutely need to provide the jets for themselves? Or can forward deployed Hornets and AF dudes fill that role? I know there are a lot of guys, including yourself, that have a lot of experience with this, so I am truly just asking here

What helolumpy said rings true, but to answer your specific questions - MEUs are required by doctrine to be self-sustaining. And, realistically - depending on the world situation, a MEU could be alone and unafraid supporting itself. I sat off the coast of Liberia shortly after the opening days of OIF when carrier based blue/green air, and most purple air were pretty busy. While we weren't doing CAS for that particular mission set - the LPOD provided the MEU incredible ISR, especially when some of the rebel groups started threatening the ACE assets that were flying in country. If a MEU is sitting off the coast, it needs to be able to meet ALL six functions of Marine Aviation - and sometimes rotary wing only just doesn't cut the mustard.

Why do they need to hit all six functions? Because a MEU is EXPECTED (not just by the Marine Corps, but by COCOMS as well) to be able to handle all missions from invading a country & full on combat to HA/DR and everything in between. Because there are frequently times we're nowhere near a reasonable distance from any carrier battle groups, we need organic TACAIR in the MEU to fill the gap.

 

[MIDNJAC]

Rog, thanks for the explanation gents.

 

[phrogpilot73]

Apologies to HD & PP73. I meant uncontested in the air-to-air realm. Obviously Marine TACAIR has seen lots of SA groundfire, etc. If the MEUs must have the F-35B, so be it. I just hope Marine TACAIR doesn't suck up all the $$ available for Marine aviation. Those H-46s can't fly for another 45 years.

No apologizes necessary... Once we bought the AV-8B, it brought a capability that I would argue is now required. The V-22 is going to suck up more than the F-35 at this point, but that's neither here nor there...

If I suddenly become independently wealthy - I'm buying a Phrog from DRMO and restoring it to show that it CAN fly for 45 more years...

^ I think they spent the piggy bank on the V-22 there.....pretty sure I've heard the H-46 is going away completely in the next year or two from my Phrog buddies

Bad gouge. The USMC is trying to get rid of them quickly to justify why they need to buy more V-22s in a budget crunch, so the timeline to replace was accelerated. However, we (east coast reserve squadron) is still slated to be flying the CH-46 until somewhere around FY2015/16... I don't know the timeline for HMX-1, but I know VMR-1 is going to being switching over to the UH-1Y after we go to V-22s...

 

[Flash]

Except for Desert Storm I, Marine TacAir (fixed-wing, not helos) has pretty much flown in uncontested airspace since Korea. If your primary roles are (a) serving the grunt & (b) flying CAS, why buy a 5th Generation F-35 @ $100MM per copy when a 4.5 Generation Super Hornet @ $50MM per copy does the job as well, or better, at half the price in an environment of shrinking defense $$ for all services? JMHO.

It isn't just air threats that I am talking about, there are several flavors of SAMs that are much more dangerous than any we have faced in combat fielded today that a 'low observable' aircraft like the F-35 will have a lot better time dealing with than just an F/A-18E/F. Of course they will still need Growlers.........

 

[pourts]

The F/A-18E/F is a good solution now and in the near future but with current and emerging threat systems to aircraft being designed, tested and fielded by our enemies it makes a lot more sense to have the F-35 than the Super Hornet in the longer term. If we stuck with the thing that was 'good enough' today we would still be flying Hellcats and Corsairs, it would be a helluva a lot of fun but you would end up dead a lot quicker.

I agree with this line of thinking. We would also still be carrying M1's with iron sights. Not that the M-16 was without its own development issues...

I am also somewhat familiar with accounting games and all the different assumptions one can make to make the numbers say diferent things. The article considered projected Total Life Cycle Costs using some pretty conservative estimates.

 

[nittany03]

It isn't just air threats that I am talking about, there are several flavors of SAMs that are much more dangerous than any we have faced in combat fielded today that a 'low observable' aircraft like the F-35 will have a lot better time dealing with than just an F/A-18E/F. Of course they will still need Growlers.........

So you're saying the USMC is getting G's?

 

[pourts]

What helolumpy said rings true, but to answer your specific questions - MEUs are required by doctrine to be self-sustaining. And, realistically - depending on the world situation, a MEU could be alone and unafraid supporting itself. I sat off the coast of Liberia shortly after the opening days of OIF when carrier based blue/green air, and most purple air were pretty busy. While we weren't doing CAS for that particular mission set - the LPOD provided the MEU incredible ISR, especially when some of the rebel groups started threatening the ACE assets that were flying in country. If a MEU is sitting off the coast, it needs to be able to meet ALL six functions of Marine Aviation - and sometimes rotary wing only just doesn't cut the mustard.

Why do they need to hit all six functions? Because a MEU is EXPECTED (not just by the Marine Corps, but by COCOMS as well) to be able to handle all missions from invading a country & full on combat to HA/DR and everything in between. Because there are frequently times we're nowhere near a reasonable distance from any carrier battle groups, we need organic TACAIR in the MEU to fill the gap.

So, in your opinion a light attack prop like AT-6 or Super T (if it could recover aboard the LHD) would not be worth much to the MEU since it doesn't get them any closer to the 6 functions? Isn't one of those 6 functions electronic warfare? How has the MEU ever been able to do that organically without Prowlers?

Sounds like we better stock up on spare parts for the Harriers.

 

[MasterBates]

What are these six functions of Marine Air?

I have three I can come up with:

1-Deliver Grunts/Shit to Grunts
2-Blow shit up for grunts
3-Steal Brett's bike.

Am I missing some more here?

 

[phrogpilot73]

So, in your opinion a light attack prop like AT-6 or Super T (if it could recover aboard the LHD) would not be worth much to the MEU since it doesn't get them any closer to the 6 functions? Isn't one of those 6 functions electronic warfare? How has the MEU ever been able to do that organically without Prowlers?

When everyone thinks about EW - all they ever really think about is what the Prowler brings to the table. There's three subsets of EW - Electronic Attack, Electronic Protection, and Electronic Support. The MEU really doesn't have the capability to do much ES (unless you REALLY start thinking outside the box). However, based on the definitions of EA and EP - through the use of Chaff/ALQ/Flight profiles/EMCON procedures - all aircraft in the MEU can do VERY LIMITED amounts of EA and EP.

As for the AT-6 or Super T, I would have no problem with it whatsoever. It's my firm believe an organic FW asset capable of OAS/AR is a requirement for any MEU. Yes, the missions they can execute have overlap with RW assets - but at the same time, there's differences - and you can't simply go without them.

That is, until the Harriers are red-striped halfway through the MEU and you have to.

What are these six functions of Marine Air?

I have three I can come up with:

1-Deliver Grunts/Shit to Grunts
2-Blow shit up for grunts
3-Steal Brett's bike.

Am I missing some more here?

Actually, those are the doctrinal mission sets of Marine Air. We accomplish these mission sets through the six functions of Marine Air:

1. Control of Aircraft and Missiles
2. Assault Support
3. Offensive Air Support
4. Antiair Warfare
5. Aerial Reconnaissance
6. Electronic Warfare

There's subsets of every function, and they all lead down the same road - successfully stealing Brett's bike.

 

[vick]

I sat off the coast of Liberia shortly after the opening days of OIF when carrier based blue/green air, and most purple air were pretty busy. While we weren't doing CAS for that particular mission set - the LPOD provided the MEU incredible ISR, especially when some of the rebel groups started threatening the ACE assets that were flying in country. If a MEU is sitting off the coast, it needs to be able to meet ALL six functions of Marine Aviation - and sometimes rotary wing only just doesn't cut the mustard.

Oh we were fragged on the ATO to provide CAS, they just wouldn't give us any ordnance. Our kinetic effects stopped at burning down a grass hut thanks to an inadvertant flare program (not my jet). I still have some good helmet cam footage from our time there, LPOD didn't work so well at 300'.

 

[KBayDog]

What are these six functions of Marine Air?

I have three I can come up with:

1-Deliver Grunts/Shit to Grunts
2-Blow shit up for grunts
3-Steal Brett's bike.

Am I missing some more here?

As the great 20th Century philosopher Meatloaf once said, "Two out of three ain't bad."

 

[SynixMan]

Isn't think the better question to ask is when the Corps is going to get on the UAV (UAS? Or what is the Air Force calling them these days?) This article raises salient points, but the Corps hitched their wagon to the F-35B and they're in it for the long haul. I have to imagine Boeing/Lockheed/General Atomics/et all at tripping over themselves to get an armed STOVL UAV that's LHA/LHD capable. Instead of pushing back constantly against UAVs, isn't there something to say for getting quality organic, persistent, armed ISR for the MEU and the grunts on the ground?

 

[KBayDog]

Isn't think the better question to ask is when the Corps is going to get on the UAV... Instead of pushing back constantly against UAVs, isn't there something to say for getting quality organic, persistent, armed ISR for the MEU and the grunts on the ground?

Do a quick Google (or Bing, or whatever search engine you prefer) for "Marine Unmanned Aerial Vehicle Squadron."

UAVs are not a large part of MEU ops...yet...but believe me, the Corps is "on board" with UAVs.

 

[phrogpilot73]

Our kinetic effects stopped at burning down a grass hut thanks to an inadvertant flare program (not my jet).

You weren't the only one... Thanks to one of the many fires burning throughout the country, my aircraft kicked off flares into a group of people just north of Monrovia. Good thing it happened when Wizard was onboard my aircraft, and I was a new HAC. Sweet. After we dropped him at the embassy, we flew back by and saw the huge plume of smoke from some guy's shanty house. Whoops.

 

[SynixMan]

UAVs are not a large part of MEU ops...yet...but believe me, the Corps is "on board" with UAVs.

I knew about the Scan Eagle stuff, but is that the size/direction they're committing to? It seems the LHA/LHD level of ship could carry something larger.