Marine Air contracts

[eddie]

Also between OCS, the Flight physical, TBS, API, Primary, Intermediate and Advanced, which take out the most?

Anyone with a two-part username fails. You also have to Contribute to AirWarriors or else Steve will pull strings and fail you. God hates you because you have a jet / Blue Angel in your avatar.

 

[HeyJoe]

Also between OCS, the Flight physical, TBS, API, Primary, Intermediate and Advanced, which take out the most?

This is an attempt to ask the dreaded and verbotten % question. Nobody has these stats at their fingertips anyway and even if they did, there are a variety of reasons people attrite (whether they want to drop on request or are told to leave for lack of performance or medical disqualification). AW doesn't want to go down this path again and again and again. Do your utter best and don't worry about those who fall by the wayside (happens in sports and other academic environments anyway; knowing "the numbers" doesn't help you anyway).

 

[Flying Toaster]

Flying vs. Racing/High Performance driving...

Do military aviators necessarily make talented racers/drivers and do talented racers make good military aviators?

Hopefully all of you can help me out with the second question. As someone with nearly 10 years of racing experience (before someone notices my age and jumps at the chance to call BS, I started racing karts at 10), including lots of instructing in recent years, I can answer the first, and it's no. Of course there are exceptions as with every group, but military aviators seem to follow the general trend in terms of learning curve, and in the end, ratio of fast vs. slow. I think they should be more adept at it, and should pick it up quicker but that doesn't seem to be the case. The culprit, at least in my experience, and that of fellow instructors, is attitude. Maybe some of you can chime in here and shed some light on it, but there seems to be a lack of willingness to listen and take instructions. This would doom your typical student, but it ends up balancing out due to an aptitude and feel for controlling a vehicle of any sort. Of course now you're asking how do you know whose just a private pilot and whose a military aviator, etc. Everytime you get a new student you ask them questions about, prior experience, hobbies, career, etc. This helps give you an idea of what your dealing with. Ohhhh and oddly enough, the only anomyly is ski racers, although don't ask me why....

Maybe a more appropriate question would be- "Do above average/talented military aviators necessarily make good racers/drivers?" Unfortunately the sample size is not that large, and it's a little odd asking the person sitting next to you in the drivers seat (remember your about to put your life in their hands), so are you just an average pilot or an above average pilot...

Now how is this important or relevent? It's recommended that you contribute, as opposed to just asking questions, so the first part of this was my contribution to any of you who want to go racing some day (and incase you missed the point, LISTEN TO YOUR INSTRUCTORS ).

Here's the second part, I've mentioned this before, but the reason I'm signing up and going into Marine aviation is not because I'm an aviation nut. I haven't been dreaming about planes night and day since I was a little boy, nor do I know that much about aviation. I have always felt a duty to serve and feel my skill set that has been developed over the last 10 years in racing would best be put to use in aviation. I could very well be sacrificing any remote chance I have at racing pro, but it's one I'm willing to make. What is that skill set, and how is it relevent to aviation (if at all)? Well I was hoping maybe all of you could help me out on that.

Car control- This is just a general feel for the vehicle. Alot of people just don't have this, and it's difficult to learn, if not impossible. It's the ability to know where the edge is, and control your vehicle on that edge (when necessary) with out exceeding it.

Precision- It's the ability to place the car EXACTLY where it need to be, within inches at 100mph +. To do this you have to know right where all the corners of the car are.

Discipline- The ability to do the above, lap after lap, for hours on end depending on the length of the race. It's also involves controlling your emotions, despite what you see in movies or NASCAR, this is very important. If you want your car to last, and not to get hurt you need to control the "red mist" as we call it.

Scanning- Always having your head on a 360 degree swivel, checking your mirrors, left and right, knowing right where the other cars in close proximity are and whats going on around you.

Vision- Relates to scanning, your never looking right in front of you or at your nose, always as far as you can see, giving you time to react. The other thing you learn is to look where you are headed.

Concentration- The ability to hit your marks and be precise after many hours in the car, one screw up or lapse and your in the grass, wall or another car. Also if you do the math, generally 10-20 corners, lap times from 1-2:30 minutes, a braking zone before the corner, turn in, apex and turn out, it doesn't give you alot of time to screw off and think about what you had for breakfast.

General Mechanical Knowledge- Just what it sounds like, car break, you have to work on them, set them up for optimal performance. Dialing in adjustments etc. Although I mostly developed that from working and being around my dads shop (repair shop for Porsche/BMW) since I was 12.

There are many others, but those impress me as the most pertinent.

btw. most of my experience is not oval racing (NASCAR), it's from road racing, courses that go left and right, sports cars or formula cars, run rain or shine, 1,2,4,6,12,24 hour races, etc.

I'm looking forward to everyones input,

Mike


Mods- Feel free to move this to the war zone, or another forum if it's more appropriate there.

 

[HeyJoe]

History says Yes

Have you read the biography of Capt Eddie? Eddie Rickenbacker was a dominant figure in car racing circuits from 1909 - 1917. When US entered the Great War, he offered to form a squadron of former racing car drivers. Instead he got the job of driving General "Black Jack" Pershing as a Sergeant First Class. However, his skill as a mechanic got him introduced to none other than "Billy" Mitchell who had a broken down car. Mitchell oversaw the US Flying Corps and was sympathetic to Rickenbacker's wishes. He then got a chance to learn to fly, but his mechanical skill landed him a job overseeing aircraft repair and maintenance. He finally got to a Pursuit Squadron by 1918 and became the first US "Ace of Aces".

"Fast Eddie" in a racecar of the day

Capt Eddie, "Ace of Aces"

That should answer second part of your question. As to first part: Do military aviators necessarily make talented racers/drivers?

You should see what a Naval Aviator (or NFO) can do with a rental car...they can take the humblest of Rental Cars and turn them into the fastest cars on earth.

 

[A4sForever]

Do military aviators necessarily make talented racers/drivers ....

I can't speak to cars -- but as for boats?? The answer, speaking from experience, is a decided: YES !!! As a motor skill set learned in the air -- when applied to the water in a hydro format -- one can discern very, very subtle changes in speed, yaw, relative motion, and boat angle that some of our more land-locked brethren (and sisters) have never experienced. We're light years ahead of "them" in "seat-of-the-pants" skills ... airborne or water borne.

Although I don't "know" race cars ... I DO know a pit crew member with an Indy 500 team ... he was formerly a plane captain on the Blues ... he once was telling me about Indy racing and Indy drivers and Indy egos ...

He allowed when comparing it to his Navy experience: "These guys (Indy drivers) think they know SPEED ??? HAH!! They don't have a clue about what REAL speed is like ..."

 

[whitesoxnation]

I know that some of the drivers also own their own/fly their own airplanes

 

[zab1001]

Hey guys, I was wondering if having prior flight time will help me get jets?

o wait...

Your driving experience certainly won't HURT your aptitude for flying.

A better question is how good are you at memorizing massive amounts of information and regurgitating them as you apply their principles while concurrently physically and mentally occupied?

 

[stalk]

When I saw the thread title I just couldn't help myself so take shelter due to an incoming sea story: RAG IP playing bogey on a Intercept syllabus flight. Get the word the night before that a NASCAR driver is getting a VIP ride and I'll be taking a 2 seater up with him. I don't have a clue who he is because I don't follow racing. He shows up wearing his Miller Beer racing suit escorted by reporters and 3 of his lackeys. Standing in the ready room he starts giving a press conference and says (no shit) "this ought to be a piece of cake, flying these jets can't be anything close to driving my car". I thought the SDO was going to fall off his chair as every head within earshot turned. The Skipper did his best to not change his expression. Now we brief, which he mostly ignores and walk. I go through seat brief again at the airplane and finally had enough of the attitude to point out that if he breaths on the ejection handle I would hunt down his family, etc. He chuckles but when I don't smile he figures it out. Anyway, we go flying get the X, send the stud home and now it's play time. I demo a few mild maneuvers do the "buzz the boatex", give him the controls and say have at it. He flies level for a minute and asks which way to the base. I tell him and he turns gently. I encourage him to have fun but he now tells me that this has been "interesting" but he has a dinner function to attend and needs to get back. So back it is to a 6g break that puts him to sleep. I had to stay at the end of runway for about 10 minutes before taxiing into the line so he could get his stuff together for the reporters. I find out later from some friends that were NASCAR fans that this driver was particularly arrogant and one of the circuits "badboys".

 

[Raptor2216]

When I saw the thread title I just couldn't help myself so take shelter due to an incoming sea story: RAG IP playing bogey on a Intercept syllabus flight. Get the word the night before that a NASCAR driver is getting a VIP ride and I'll be taking a 2 seater up with him. I don't have a clue who he is because I don't follow racing. He shows up wearing his Miller Beer racing suit escorted by reporters and 3 of his lackeys. Standing in the ready room he starts giving a press conference and says (no shit) "this ought to be a piece of cake, flying these jets can't be anything close to driving my car". I thought the SDO was going to fall off his chair as every head within earshot turned. The Skipper did his best to not change his expression. Now we brief, which he mostly ignores and walk. I go through seat brief again at the airplane and finally had enough of the attitude to point out that if he breaths on the ejection handle I would hunt down his family, etc. He chuckles but when I don't smile he figures it out. Anyway, we go flying get the X, send the stud home and now it's play time. I demo a few mild maneuvers do the "buzz the boatex", give him the controls and say have at it. He flies level for a minute and asks which way to the base. I tell him and he turns gently. I encourage him to have fun but he now tells me that this has been "interesting" but he has a dinner function to attend and needs to get back. So back it is to a 6g break that puts him to sleep. I had to stay at the end of runway for about 10 minutes before taxiing into the line so he could get his stuff together for the reporters. I find out later from some friends that were NASCAR fans that this driver was particularly arrogant and one of the circuits "badboys".

It's too bad there weren't any cameras in the jet to record all this. It would have been nice to view it right next to the footage of him talking smack.

On another note, I don't have any racing experience outside of the usual motorcycle riding around California mountains or just pushing my 4-cyl Honda accord to its less than respectable limits, but I have a pretty good feel for all things mechanical. I don't believe this is a unique ability and I'm sure there are plenty of people on this planet who can claim it but what sets me apart as along with anyone else involved in Naval aviation is the fact that we have the motivation to seek out and work hard for a career along with basic hand/eye coordination, one of those things that you are just born with.

What I deduce from all this is that you can take someone who is comfortable around mechanical things with the willingness to learn and apply the basic fundamentals of something like racing a car and make a professional out of him. What I have just described is your basic Military pilot. However, you can't take someone who is a complete dud around anything mechanical and the world is full of them, but has the ability to learn and apply basic procedures and make a race car driver out of him. So, I definitely believe that you can turn your average military pilot into a race car driver but driving a car is pretty much a two dimensional business and the same can't be said for flying an A/C...let alone a military A/C. If I had to put some money on it, I'd bet its easier to take a military pilot and turn him into a driver than vice-versa.

 

[Gatordev]

Wow, a refreshing and new topic posted. Kudos.

I've done a couple of performance driving schools (not racing) and I always compare them to flying, especially on the military side. I don't think there's much comparison w/ the civilian side except professional aerobatic pilots (and racers, of course). The big takeaway I've had was that driving a car both fast AND precise (which go hand in hand) is a lot of fun, but I don't think I'd like to be a race car driver as a profession. It's too much work. Even with a primary student, there's time to zone out for a bit if it's an off-day or you're nursing the hangover. W/ racing (as far as I perceive), there's far less wiggle room for missed opportunities. Plus, w/ racing, you HAVE to win, or at least do well, otherwise it's a short career. I'm pretty competitive, but there's a point where it stops becoming fun and becomes a job, and that's where I tend to disconnect.

As for the pilot vs. driver argument... When I did the schools, I did pretty well. I don't mean that to toot my own horn, just that I did pretty well and the instructors noticed. But I credit it in part to my ability, but mostly to just listening to the instructors and doing what they said. Making that happen is part of the ability, but if you follow directions, there's big payoffs. This is no different than flying. Do what the IP says, and (mostly) you'll "get it." Actually being able to do what the IP said initially is the big challenge and part of the self-competitiveness I was talking about.

 

[Flying Toaster]

Have you read the biography of Capt Eddie? Eddie Rickenbacker was a dominant figure in car racing circuits from 1909 - 1917. When US entered the Great War, he offered to form a squadron of former racing car drivers. Instead he got the job of driving General "Black Jack" Pershing as a Sergeant First Class. However, his skill as a mechanic got him introduced to none other than "Billy" Mitchell who had a broken down car. Mitchell oversaw the US Flying Corps and was sympathetic to Rickenbacker's wishes. He then got a chance to learn to fly, but his mechanical skill landed him a job overseeing aircraft repair and maintenance. He finally got to a Pursuit Squadron by 1918 and became the first US "Ace of Aces".

Good stuff, looks like I'll have some new reading material.

Some notable military aviators who became racers were John Fitch (confirmed ME262 kill), and Caroll Shelby (Flight instructor and test pilot during WWII).

That should answer second part of your question. As to first part: Do military aviators necessarily make talented racers/drivers?

You should see what a Naval Aviator (or NFO) can do with a rental car...they can take the humblest of Rental Cars and turn them into the fastest cars on earth.

LMAO, Racers are pretty adept at doing that to :icon_smil

(Rental Mecury Grand Marquis around Barber Motorsports Park)

He allowed when comparing it to his Navy experience: "These guys (Indy drivers) think they know SPEED ??? HAH!! They don't have a clue about what REAL speed is like ..."

While thats any easy card to play, remember they are doing it between two very solid concrete walls. Words of wisdom from a very successful NASCAR driver relating to Indy cars "I wouldn't get out of an electric chair to get into one of those things"....

When I saw the thread title I just couldn't help myself so take shelter due to an incoming sea story: RAG IP playing bogey on a Intercept syllabus flight. Get the word the night before that a NASCAR driver is getting a VIP ride and I'll be taking a 2 seater up with him. I don't have a clue who he is because I don't follow racing. He shows up wearing his Miller Beer racing suit escorted by reporters and 3 of his lackeys. Standing in the ready room he starts giving a press conference and says (no shit) "this ought to be a piece of cake, flying these jets can't be anything close to driving my car". I thought the SDO was going to fall off his chair as every head within earshot turned. The Skipper did his best to not change his expression. Now we brief, which he mostly ignores and walk. I go through seat brief again at the airplane and finally had enough of the attitude to point out that if he breaths on the ejection handle I would hunt down his family, etc. He chuckles but when I don't smile he figures it out. Anyway, we go flying get the X, send the stud home and now it's play time. I demo a few mild maneuvers do the "buzz the boatex", give him the controls and say have at it. He flies level for a minute and asks which way to the base. I tell him and he turns gently. I encourage him to have fun but he now tells me that this has been "interesting" but he has a dinner function to attend and needs to get back. So back it is to a 6g break that puts him to sleep. I had to stay at the end of runway for about 10 minutes before taxiing into the line so he could get his stuff together for the reporters. I find out later from some friends that were NASCAR fans that this driver was particularly arrogant and one of the circuits "badboys".

Great story! If I'm thinking of the correct driver why does that not suprise me.

Wow, a refreshing and new topic posted. Kudos.

I've done a couple of performance driving schools (not racing) and I always compare them to flying, especially on the military side. I don't think there's much comparison w/ the civilian side except professional aerobatic pilots (and racers, of course). The big takeaway I've had was that driving a car both fast AND precise (which go hand in hand) is a lot of fun, but I don't think I'd like to be a race car driver as a profession. It's too much work. Even with a primary student, there's time to zone out for a bit if it's an off-day or you're nursing the hangover. W/ racing (as far as I perceive), there's far less wiggle room for missed opportunities. Plus, w/ racing, you HAVE to win, or at least do well, otherwise it's a short career. I'm pretty competitive, but there's a point where it stops becoming fun and becomes a job, and that's where I tend to disconnect.

As for the pilot vs. driver argument... When I did the schools, I did pretty well. I don't mean that to toot my own horn, just that I did pretty well and the instructors noticed. But I credit it in part to my ability, but mostly to just listening to the instructors and doing what they said. Making that happen is part of the ability, but if you follow directions, there's big payoffs. This is no different than flying. Do what the IP says, and (mostly) you'll "get it." Actually being able to do what the IP said initially is the big challenge and part of the self-competitiveness I was talking about.

I can tell you're a good student because you've already figured out precise and smooth is fast. More speed then comes with time and experience. I actually love that level competitiveness, to be a great racer you need to always strive for perfection, corner after corner, lap after lap, race after race, but thats a story for another day. Although what I really dislike about racing is it's a money game, period, end of story. Racing pro is far more about the size of your wallet than your level of talent. Thats another reason I look forward heading off to training, money has nothing to do with your level of success or progression.


Other interesting notes on aviators and racing. Curtis Lemay was an avid racer, and allowed the SCCA to use SAC bases to run races. This was during the era where open road races had become much to dangerous and the SCCA was looking for tracks. Anyway he usually put one of his best pilots in a car thinking they would show these foolish racers a thing or two, but in the end they typically got embarassed. Of course this was more due to a complete lack of training than any fault of their own.

Last here's a perfect video relating to this topic, from the British show Fifth gear. Their resident racing driver (Jason Plato) attempts to teach one of the Blue Eagles helicopter squadron (Brit's military aerobatic team) pilots how to do stunt driving....

 

[bunk22]

When I saw the thread title I just couldn't help myself so take shelter due to an incoming sea story: RAG IP playing bogey on a Intercept syllabus flight. Get the word the night before that a NASCAR driver is getting a VIP ride and I'll be taking a 2 seater up with him. I don't have a clue who he is because I don't follow racing. He shows up wearing his Miller Beer racing suit escorted by reporters and 3 of his lackeys. Standing in the ready room he starts giving a press conference and says (no shit) "this ought to be a piece of cake, flying these jets can't be anything close to driving my car". I thought the SDO was going to fall off his chair as every head within earshot turned. The Skipper did his best to not change his expression. Now we brief, which he mostly ignores and walk. I go through seat brief again at the airplane and finally had enough of the attitude to point out that if he breaths on the ejection handle I would hunt down his family, etc. He chuckles but when I don't smile he figures it out. Anyway, we go flying get the X, send the stud home and now it's play time. I demo a few mild maneuvers do the "buzz the boatex", give him the controls and say have at it. He flies level for a minute and asks which way to the base. I tell him and he turns gently. I encourage him to have fun but he now tells me that this has been "interesting" but he has a dinner function to attend and needs to get back. So back it is to a 6g break that puts him to sleep. I had to stay at the end of runway for about 10 minutes before taxiing into the line so he could get his stuff together for the reporters. I find out later from some friends that were NASCAR fans that this driver was particularly arrogant and one of the circuits "badboys".

Mr Stalk, you certainly did the right thing Good story.

IMO, being able to race (and be good at it) probably demonstrates an ability for good hand/eye coordination, making quite decisions at speed, keeping your cool under stress, etc. The first thought that came to mind was, like HJ mentioned, WWI aviators or at least the early years of military aviation and Eddie Rickenbacker. They seemingly had the skills and ability that were required of aviators back in the day. My guess is same would hold true today as long as the individual wanted to fly, enjoyed it and was able to deal with the stress of military flying (from training to fleet). I don't think I've run into many students who race so I have no real world comparison. Folks who know me know I love fast cars and race my modified C6 quite a bit but unfortunetly thus far, just drag racing. Entered my first contest for trophy and money and got my ass handed to me as well So I suck at drag racing (250+ passes on my current ride) so not sure what that says about my flying?? I mean I've only crashed once :icon_tong I tell ya what though, I certainly wouldn't mind racing my Vette around the twisties. Just no time and no tracks for that around here. As my wife would say, last thing I need is another hobby.

 

[Harrier Dude]

When I saw the thread title I just couldn't help myself so take shelter due to an incoming sea story: RAG IP playing bogey on a Intercept syllabus flight. Get the word the night before that a NASCAR driver is getting a VIP ride and I'll be taking a 2 seater up with him. I don't have a clue who he is because I don't follow racing. He shows up wearing his Miller Beer racing suit escorted by reporters and 3 of his lackeys. Standing in the ready room he starts giving a press conference and says (no shit) "this ought to be a piece of cake, flying these jets can't be anything close to driving my car". I thought the SDO was going to fall off his chair as every head within earshot turned. The Skipper did his best to not change his expression. Now we brief, which he mostly ignores and walk. I go through seat brief again at the airplane and finally had enough of the attitude to point out that if he breaths on the ejection handle I would hunt down his family, etc. He chuckles but when I don't smile he figures it out. Anyway, we go flying get the X, send the stud home and now it's play time. I demo a few mild maneuvers do the "buzz the boatex", give him the controls and say have at it. He flies level for a minute and asks which way to the base. I tell him and he turns gently. I encourage him to have fun but he now tells me that this has been "interesting" but he has a dinner function to attend and needs to get back. So back it is to a 6g break that puts him to sleep. I had to stay at the end of runway for about 10 minutes before taxiing into the line so he could get his stuff together for the reporters. I find out later from some friends that were NASCAR fans that this driver was particularly arrogant and one of the circuits "badboys".

What year was this? It sounds like either Wallace or Allison. Both raced for Miller.

Rusty has several planes and choppers with thousands of hours, so I doubt that he'd be such a dumbass about it.

 

[Marco]

I have to ask, who cares? It's really apples to oranges. And before you get defensive, I've been racing karts since I was 8. Started in 4 cycle gold restrictor plate and progressed all the way up to my current ride, my 125cc shifter kart Moto class engine, (TaG and the ICC motors suck). I even talked to a few Toyota Atlantic teams briefly.
Here's the kicker: after all those years of racing, as soon as I started flying, I stopped racing. In the end, you can go in circles or a straight line with a car or kart. In the air, I'm faster and can go anywhere I want (with clearance, but you get my point: up, down, left, right, loop, figure 8, etc.) My kart hasn't seen a track in almost 3 years cuz it's just plain boring compared to flying. To answer your question though, anyone can do the job with enough seat/stick time and the proper training.

 

[MasterBates]

Funny. Even though I have been flying for years, and have flown every orange & white the Navy owns, I still love to get out on my Motocross bike and tear ass down a track.

Too bad every time I go home the Southwick National track (MX338) is under 2-3 feet of snow.

Then again, I like that track and would ride it in the snow if I could get in.