Left seat or right, big deck or small boy, FLIR up..or down?

[teabag53]

Come on, every pilot has got to have some sort of understanding for human factors. If you had been sitting on the right, at least you would have a little bit more situational awareness (SA) as to the helicopters actual position. That is what this whole concept is based on. Otherwise why in the world do the Russians not sit on the right as well? Second note: What is the military supposed to say when they have to explain to civilians who know nothing about aviation, that when their son or daughter died in a crash the pilot in charge was actually sitting in the copilots’ seat vises the engineered into the system pilot’s seat? Therefore it makes no sense what so ever why you would want to sit in the other seat. Except for in the training environment, this includes fleet training. If an accident did occur during a training mission then it would be documented as such.

I will retract the statement I made as to the NATOPS, but I stand by my opinion of the original topic.

Always remember to ask your self this question. What if? If the answer to this has a negative outcome then you might want to go with the decision to stick with what has been engineered into the system for your and your crews’ safety.

It is as simple as Deliberate ORM. Step 4 Implement controls: There three separate ways to do this and they are listed in hierarchyform. As referenced in the OPNAVINST 3500.39B Enclosure (1) page 2.

(1) Engineering Controls – controls that use engineering methods to reduce risks by design, material selection or substitution when technically or economically feasible.

(2) Administrative Controls- Controls that reduce risks through specific administrative actions, such as:

(a) Providing suitable warnings, markings, placards, signs, and notices.

(b) Establishing written policies, programs instructions and standard operating procedures (SOP).

(c) Training personnel to recognize hazards and take appropriate precautionary measures.

(3) Personal Protective Equipment- Serves as a barrier between personnel and a hazard. It should be used when other controls do not reduce the hazard to an acceptable level.

Here we are looking at an engineering and administrative control measure which was engineered into your aircrafts to give the best solution to the what if question, and yes this holds true for the russian CW rotating heads as well hince they sit on the left. The end!

Please have a good day and heed what I have said for it may hold the key to your fate one day.

I think the operative word in all of this is your 'opinion.' You're certainly entitled to have one but it doesn't mean jack shit until you have some sort of credibility to back it up. It's money that you have actually have an academic background for argument but I'd listen to the experience on this forum rather than tell them 'how it is.' You may lecture AFTER you have experience.

Seriously, who do you think you are asking somebody such as myself to ask myself 'what if?' Do you think honestly think we just go at all this flyin' business willy nilly and don't do this already? Are all of the instructor qualifications and designations just the result of an inadequate training system that should have been given to the majority of fleet pilots that don't have them? Before you answer, pour yourself a large cup of STFU and think it over.

On the ORM topic it appears that it is academic to you but a way of life for those you're lecturing. Again, your lack of experience in a pilot's seat prevents me from lending any credibility to your lecture so just keep sipping the aforementioned cup while I ramble a bit more.

I'll be the first to admit that experience doesn't mean somebody can't learn more but in this case I'd stack the thousands of hours the DESIGNATED avaitors have against your book/internet report. Your arrogance is akin to a new boot 2ndLt Platoon Commander that thinks he knows everything 'cause he's been to the school and fails to listen to his subordinates because their experienced-based suggestions don't match what the 2ndLt Robot learned in the books.

To summarize, one need not have experience to have knowledge but the only way to get experience is to have the requisite knowledge. Hopefully, this will dispell any notion you may have that those of us experienced folks are without knowledge.

Heed what I've said and you might actually get through a training command and not end up getting your ass kicked in a fleet squadron.

 

[teabag53]

Wow!!!! There were a few STFU posts during the time it took me to write mine...I must really be retarded. That said, sorry for saying more or less the same (although I think I kept it tame).

 

[Uncle Fester]

I...Your arrogance is akin to a new boot 2ndLt Platoon Commander that thinks he knows everything 'cause he's been to the school and fails to listen to his subordinates because their experienced-based suggestions don't match what the 2ndLt Robot learned in the books...

Actually, more like the new 2LT lecturing the Company and Battalion CO's.

The reason everybody's dogpiling on here is not from ego - your attitude is not only poor, it's dangerous. Going into Aviation with the idea that you know more than others because of your prior enlisted time will get you exactly nowhere. At best, it'll turn off your fellow aviators, but more likely, you're going to find that your book knowledge and time as a wrench-turner isn't applicable - or just plain wrong.

Shaw, consider this your free welcome-aboard punch in the face. We've all fucked up when our mouths ran away from our brains when we were New Guys. Be grateful that it was on the relative anonymity of the Interwebs* and not IRL.

*relative being the operable term...there are a LOT of instructors (API, VT's and RAG's) on this board, and more than one guy here has learned the hard way that what's said on AW has a way of biting them on their actual ass.

 

[picklesuit]

Come on, every pilot has got to have some sort of understanding for human factors.
Here we are looking at an engineering and administrative control measure which was engineered into your aircrafts to give the best solution to the what if question, and yes this holds true for the russian CW rotating heads as well hince they sit on the left. The end!

Please have a good day and heed what I have said for it may hold the key to your fate one day.

So where do the Helix/Hormone guys sit?!
.
.
.
Shenanigans!

 

[exhelodrvr]

So where do the Helix/Hormone guys sit?!
.
.
.
Shenanigans!

Duh!! The left seat faces aft, and the right seat faces forward. That way no matter which rotor fails, the helo will rotate to the right for one of the pilots.

Unless they are in the Southern Hemisphere. Which is why Russian ships rarely cross the equator.

 

[MasterBates]

Helix sits either seat, left has some tactical crap..

<-- Got more hours in the Ka-27 than his current fleet aircraft.

 

[picklesuit]

Wait a minute...in the other thread you state:

I will be in the 10 May OCS class, anyone else? I would like to know if anyone is driving because I will need a place for my cell phone if you don't mind.

About me: Age: 29/ Sex: Male/ Designator: Pilot / Status: Active duty AM1 E-6/ Degree and School: B.S Professional Aeronautics Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University. Currenttly 33 out of 36 credits completed for a Masters in Aeronautical Science also from ERAU.

And in the this thread you state:

I hope this helps:
AM1 (AW) Shaw
OCS class 10 May 2009 (PILOT)
Degree: Masters in Aeronautical Science
Embry-Riddle

So which is it? Are you trying to look smarter for the "Aero" discussion or did you graduate today?

Pickle

 

[A4sForever]

(says the "Navy Master Training Specialist" to the Aviator):
Come on, every pilot has got to have some sort of understanding for human factors.....Please have a good day and heed what I have said for it may hold the key to your fate one day.

It's like the buss boy comes out of the kitchen to tell the Maitre'De how to run the restaurant ...

I love it!

 

[teabag53]

I don't know if it is possible for me to "heed what he has said" any less. Maybe completely destroying any shred of credibility and trying to teach those who know would be a good little ORM project for him. It would be a startling revelation that if one talks out their ass enough people will assume they're wrong even if they're right. Oh wait, Mr. Not-even-a-stud-yet-but-knows-all-things-rotorcraft-and-ORM-related has not posted that lesson on here for my purusal yet.

 

[shaw5fe]

I want to apologize to anyone who found my last post distasteful. I was simply replying to all the criticism I received from this forum. Someone asked a simple question of why U.S helo pilots sit on the right and I gave a simple educated response. That response came under fire so I simply defended it with more facts. That too was fired upon so that led to my previous posting. I apologize to all but please understand that I know pilots rotate seats but the original question was why the right vise the left. If there was no real reason then why not call the left seat the pilot seat and right the copilot and kept things simple and the same as fixed wing? We cannot just say Igor’s original design because other helicopters throughout the world are completely opposite with regards to designated pilot seat position and head rotation. I do not believe this is merely a coincidence.


Since we have beat this thing to death with no real results I ask this question for some experienced pilots out there to answer. Why do Russian helo Pilots sit on the left rather than the right? This is not meant to be arrogant. I really want to know since what I have posted was so,so, wrong according to everyone else in here.

Very Respectfully,

 

[exhelodrvr]

Since we have beat this thing to death with no real results I ask this question for some experienced pilots out there to answer. Why do Russian helo Pilots sit on the left rather than the right? This is not meant to be arrogant. I really want to know since what I have posted was so,so, wrong according to everyone else in here.

Very Respectfully,

It probably has more to do with tradition than anything else.

Possible other reasons would be the side that they typically approach ships from for landings, access to instruments/controls/systems from the two seats, visibility differences due to location of external stores/equipment, location of crew stations (i.e. which side the cargo door and personnel opens on).

Or maybe because Communists have always been considered leftists.

 

[teabag53]

...or, maybe like us, the aircraft commander sits wherever he deems appropriate depending on whim or what the scheduled mission is.

 

[phrogpilot73]

For what it's worth - here's a link explaining it from a somewhat educated source.

In case you're curious what his background is, and whether he's full of bullshit or not:

Biography: Doug Jackson is an aeronautical engineer who uses his background in aviation and aerospace to improve aircraft survivability, or the ability to withstand damage and continue flying safely. Doug concentrates his skills on helicopters and other rotorcraft as well as efforts to improve crash-worthiness. He travels the country frequently to participate in survivability tests of aircraft, helicopters, and unmanned aerial vehicles.

Professional Interests: Aerodynamics, flight dynamics, helicopters, tilt rotor technology, survivability, experimental testing.

Personal Interests: Military aircraft, air shows.

Selected Memberships:
# American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics
# Sigma Gamma Tau Aerospace Engineering Honor Society

 

[Uncle Fester]

I want to apologize to anyone who found my last post distasteful. I was simply replying to all the criticism I received from this forum. Someone asked a simple question of why U.S helo pilots sit on the right and I gave a simple educated response. That response came under fire so I simply defended it with more facts. That too was fired upon so that led to my previous posting...Since we have beat this thing to death with no real results I ask this question for some experienced pilots out there to answer...This is not meant to be arrogant. I really want to know since what I have posted was so,so, wrong according to everyone else in here...

Bullshit. That wounded tone impresses no one, and that's not what happened. You presumed to lecture seasoned military helicopter pilots about ORM, safety and procedures. Your tone was unprofessional and patronizing, and what's more, you managed to combine ignorance with arrogance. Neither your enlisted experience nor your ERAU education entitles you to the tone you took. Would you have written what you did here in an email to senior officers in a squadron? Cease showing your ass and getting all huffy when you're called out, or take your fucking ball and go home.

 

[phrogdriver]

I want to apologize to anyone who found my last post distasteful. I was simply replying to all the criticism I received from this forum. Someone asked a simple question of why U.S helo pilots sit on the right and I gave a simple educated response. That response came under fire so I simply defended it with more facts. That too was fired upon so that led to my previous posting. I apologize to all but please understand that I know pilots rotate seats but the original question was why the right vise the left. If there was no real reason then why not call the left seat the pilot seat and right the copilot and kept things simple and the same as fixed wing? We cannot just say Igor’s original design because other helicopters throughout the world are completely opposite with regards to designated pilot seat position and head rotation. I do not believe this is merely a coincidence.


Since we have beat this thing to death with no real results I ask this question for some experienced pilots out there to answer. Why do Russian helo Pilots sit on the left rather than the right? This is not meant to be arrogant. I really want to know since what I have posted was so,so, wrong according to everyone else in here.

Very Respectfully,

It wasn't your theory about the origin of the seating arrangement. That was great. It was the lecture about ORM, human factors, NATOPS, and "key to your fate" stuff that was the issue. You can't possibly tell a room full of pilots that they're all wrong.

For another example, just because I let a passenger in through the "crew door" am I violating NATOPS?