Iraq Helo Losses - summary

[ChuckMK23]

Associated Press

A look at helicopter crashes in Iraq since March 20, 2003:

_ Jan. 13, 2006: A U.S. Army OH-58 Kiowa helicopter went down near Mosul after coming to the aid of Iraqi police under hostile fire, and its two pilots were killed.

_ Jan. 7, 2006: A Black Hawk helicopter carrying eight U.S. troops and four American civilians crashed near Tal Afar, killing all aboard.

_ Dec. 26, 2005: Two U.S. pilots were killed after their Apache collided with another helicopter just west of Baghdad. The second helicopter was able to land and its pilots were uninjured

_ Nov. 2, 2005: A U.S. Marine AH-1W Super Cobra helicopter crashed near Ramadi, killing the two crew members.

_ June 27, 2005: A U.S. Apache AH-64 attack helicopter crashed in Mishahda, north of Baghdad, killing both pilots.

_ May 31, 2005: An Italian AB-412 helicopter crashed south of Nasiriyah, killing four Italian troops aboard in what a spokesman said was likely an accident.

_ May 26, 2005: Insurgents shot down an OH-58 Kiowa helicopter near Buhriz, north of Baghdad, killing two U.S. soldiers.

_ April 21, 2005: A Russian-made Mi-8 helicopter is shot down by missile fire north of Baghdad, killing 11 people, including six American contractors.

_ Jan. 26, 2005: A CH-53 Sea Stallion transport helicopter crashed in bad weather in western Iraq, killing at least 31 Marines aboard.

_ Dec. 10, 2004: An Apache collided with a UH-60 Black Hawk that was on the ground at an air base in Mosul, killing two U.S. soldiers and injuring four.

_ Oct. 16, 2004: Two Kiowa helicopters crashed in southwest Baghdad, killing two and wounding two.

_ April 11, 2004: Gunmen shot down an Apache attack helicopter in western Baghdad, killing its two crew members.

_ Feb. 25, 2004: A Kiowa crashed in a river west of Baghdad, killing the two crewmembers on board.

_ Jan. 23, 2004: A Kiowa crashed near the northern town of Qayyarah, killing the two pilots.

_ Jan. 8, 2004: A Black Hawk medevac helicopter crashed near Fallujah, killing all nine soldiers on board.

_ Jan. 2, 2004: A Kiowa was shot down near Fallujah, killing its pilot and wounding another soldier.

_ Nov. 15, 2003: Two Black Hawks crashed in Mosul, killing 17 soldiers and injuring five. The military said the helicopters collided during a likely rocket-propelled grenade attack.

_ Nov. 7, 2003: A Black Hawk was downed near Tikrit, apparently by a rocket-propelled grenade, killing all six on board.

_ Nov. 2, 2003: A Chinook transport helicopter was shot down near Fallujah, killing 16 and injuring 26.

_ May 19, 2003: A CH-46 Sea Knight transport helicopter crashed shortly after takeoff in Hillah, killing four Marines. Another Marine drowned trying to rescue them from a canal.

_ May 9, 2003: A Black Hawk crashed near Samarra, killing three soldiers, in an apparent accident.

 

[MarineAir]

Just out of curiousity. For the single rotor helos that were shot down, I'm assuming the insurgents have learnt that taking out the tail boom will bring down the aircraft(no doubt from their al qaida pals from Moghadishu). Is the Russian model of having double rotors counter rotating on a single akis, thus eliminating the tail boom a feasible idea? From an uneducated view, I think hitting the rotor transmission will be a little harder to do. While on the subject of tail rotors, will the US Military ever adopt the NO TAil Rotor system. Interested to hear what the helo pilots on here think of this subject.

 

[phrogdriver]

I'm also sure that not all of the single-rotor helos were not downed by tail rotor shots. The coaxial design does counteract torque, but is also tremendously complex. I think that's the reason there aren't a lot of Western helos using the configuration.

As far as NOTAR, it's not going to be in the Navy or Marine Corps anytime soon. The Army is going to have competitions for new scout and utility helos in light of the canx of the Comanche and the retirement of the UH. I'm sure MD will put in an Explorer or 500 variant, some of which come in NOTAR variants.

Bobbyrock might have some more info. I'm trying to remember Rotor and Wing magazine from a couple months ago.

 

[Pags]

I think Bell's entry into that competition is their ARH.

http://www.bellhelicopter.textron.com/en/aircraft/military/ARH/bellARH3.cfm

It might like a tad familiar to those of you in the HTs.

 

[Gatordev]

I don't know the details of how the Iraqi bad guys are using their weapons (I'm sure others on here can expound), but if they are getting tail rotor hits, it's out of (near) sheer luck. Even the Somalis were relatively lucky to get the shots they did, and they didn't always hit the tail rotors. I know one (and perhaps a second one) got hit in the transmission/short shaft area. The locals had re-engineered their RPG warheads to explode w/ a timed fuse, so the warheads weren't hitting the T/R directly, but instead exploding after a few second near the target and causing lots of shrapnel damage.

 

[MarineAir]

thanks all. Gatordev, I've actually heard of the proximity fuse RPG used by the insurgents but had forgotten all about it. It would be nice if more armour could be added to those helos with out compromising the takeoff weight(just thinking aloud)

 

[SemperGumbi]

If you have ever shot an RPG (or an AT-4 for you Marine Types), you probably realize that if the target is moving you are pretty much sending up a hail marry....much less going for such a small target in the first place. Better just go for the main rotor, which isn't indestructable. I think the whole tail-rotor thing was made by big by a few people looking to get TV time talking about how movies "educate" our enemies, especially when you look at the stastics of helos that are actually taken down by tail-rotor shots. But hey, who knows, I guess.

 

[phrogdriver]

thanks all. Gatordev, I've actually heard of the proximity fuse RPG used by the insurgents but had forgotten all about it. It would be nice if more armour could be added to those helos with out compromising the takeoff weight(just thinking aloud)

That's a big IF. Even the helos regarded as heavily armored really only have protection in the cockpit and key flight controls, fuel lines, etc, plus self sealing tanks and so forth. Real armor has A LOT of weight, though I understand kevlar may be replacing some of the old armor plating. There's a big tradeoff. The 46 has big-ass metal plates that bolt on over the engines and flight control closet. They weigh about 500# as I recall (current fleet guys don't bust my balls too much if I'm off). That's about 2 Marines or 25 minutes of gas. Think about an LAV--the thing is smaller than a helo and is protected against 7.62 rounds. However, it weighs a butt-ton. Armoring a helo anything like that would weigh a sh!t-ton, using the usual conversion ratio of 5 butt-tons equals 1 sh!t-ton.

On the subject of 46 armor, it raises the issue of fighting like you train. We NEVER used the armor stateside or in the Med. Then we went to Afghanistan and all of a sudden the CO had the armor put on. The MEU was used to us having a certain load and/or a certain fuel load, which we could no longer do, not even counting the ungodly DA in that craphole nation.

 

[skidkid]

We are teatering on the edge of opsec but it is hard to put a prox fuze on anyhting man portable, the RPG does not have one, it is desinged to shoot at armor.

 

[phrogpilot73]

There's one missing...

Just thought I'd mention that the summary is missing two - the CH-46E shot down near Fallujah injuring three, and the CH-46E that crashed killing 8 Royal Marines and all 4 aircrew.

 

[Gatordev]

We are teatering on the edge of opsec but it is hard to put a prox fuze on anyhting man portable, the RPG does not have one, it is desinged to shoot at armor.

Skid, feel free to BEADWINDOW me when you see fit, but I'm just basing what I'm saying off of what can be found in Black Hawk Down. I may be paraphrasing, or maybe Bowden didn't get it quite right, but basically what he wrote (as I'm sure you know) was that the Somalis monkey'ed w/ the warhead so that it would explode shortly after being launched. It wasn't a "time delay fuse" perse, but the idea was the same. So basically, if it wasn't done just right, it would blow up on launch (never mind the back blast it must creat on your heels when you're shooting up).

Of course, I haven't been either place, so feel free to raise the flag.

 

[bobbybrock]

Without getting into to much opsec I will say that a tailrotor hit with an RPG is very difficult. The proximity fuse has been talked about but I'm not sure if it has been seen in the theater. The profile the army flies helps midigate a lot of threat. But you know what they say about the PK rate of hitting the ground. It's 100 percent. So flying low and fast has its drawbacks.
I don't think the army is as concerned about getting a notar these days. Our flight profile has just changed to much.
I do believe the MD Explore is one oif the entries in the LUH competition. There is also the Agusat 109, Eurocopter 145 and the Bell 412EP . The Army like the Marines has a great track record with Bell. I would love to see the Army pickup the new Huey the marines are getting. But we will get some lesser version. I know the ARH has been picked and it is a Bell product. I think it will be called the OH-69 Arapahoe. Anyway it will be intresting to see what happens. The new LUH will go mostly to guard units for VIP transport and some dustoff missions.

 

[gregsivers]

It seems like a tail rotor (boom) hit would be pretty hard, on the Kiowas especially. Granted I have very limited experience with helos (TH-57) but the boom in that thing is quite small and seems would be a hard target. Now it would certainly be a sh!tty place to get hit.

 

[FlyinSpy]

I may be paraphrasing, or maybe Bowden didn't get it quite right, but basically what he wrote (as I'm sure you know) was that the Somalis monkey'ed w/ the warhead so that it would explode shortly after being launched. It wasn't a "time delay fuse" perse, but the idea was the same. So basically, if it wasn't done just right, it would blow up on launch (never mind the back blast it must creat on your heels when you're shooting up).

I think what people are referring to here is the self-destruct fuze in PG-7 warheads. See http://science.howstuffworks.com/rpg3.htm for a decent unclassified summary; the fuzing is discussed towards the bottom.

Doesn't mean you couldn't screw around with the fuze to try and shorten it, but RPGs are "hit to kill" weapons. The issue in Somalia was the volume of fire; shoot a few thousand of them in the air at low & slow helos, and you have a decent chance of pegging someone. A continuing problem.

 

[Gatordev]

I think what people are referring to here is the self-destruct fuze in PG-7 warheads.

Doesn't mean you couldn't screw around with the fuze to try and shorten it, but RPGs are "hit to kill" weapons. The issue in Somalia was the volume of fire; shoot a few thousand of them in the air at low & slow helos, and you have a decent chance of pegging someone. A continuing problem.

You guys are missing the point. As it pertains in Somalia, they actually modified their weapons, thanks to the fundamentalists they imported in.

Aidid's men received some expert guidance in shooting down helicopters from fundamentalist Islamic soldiers smuggled in from the Sudan, who had experience fighting Russian helicopters in Afghanistan. ...The grenades burst on impact, but it was hard to hit a moving target with one, so the detonators on many were replaced with timing devices to make them explode in midair. That way, they wouldn't need a direct hit to cripple a chopper.

Mark Bowden, Black Hawk Down, p. 133.

I'm guessing they adjusted the time fuse you referenced, FlyinSpy. It goes on about how they put a funnel on the back to direct the gases away from the shooter and how before the events of that story occurred, they also had shot down another Blackhawk w/ an airburst from an RPG. It also mentions how they would see these smoke trails go up all around them, followed the poof of the warhead going off, even though it hadn't hit anything. Did some of the aircraft get hit directly? Sure (hell, 5 aircraft went down that day), but not all of them necessarily took a "direct hit," meaning metal on metal before the boom.

Now, standard disclaimer...This is based off the book and the info Mark Bowden collected in his research. Did he get it 100% right? I don't know, so I'm just basing my post on what he's saying. I welcome getting set straight by the Army players here.