Iraq Helo Losses - summary

[FlyinSpy]

You guys are missing the point. As it pertains in Somalia, they actually modified their weapons, thanks to the fundamentalists they imported in.

"I thought I was mistaken once, but I was mistaken...."

I've missed many of points in my day, so this certainly wouldn't be a first. In Bowden's original on-line forum that went with the Blackhawk Down series in the Philadelphia Inquirer in 1995, he had this response to someone querying about RPGs:

"Thanks, Kim. A gunner informs me that "The Skinnies messed with the warhead on the RPG to air burst. I saw a lot of them go off in the air." MB "

Now, that's a good data point, but not quite up to the confidence level that I usually like to have before I believe something 100%. (We're all still smarting from the Iraq WMD debacle, so it will be a slow recovery...) A quick google search also found references to modifications made by Chechens, so it's certainly plausible.

The "horse's mouth" on this issue is NGIC; I'll check with them on Tu to see what they have to say. Might not be able to post the actual answer, but it would be good to get the straight skinny. So to speak...

 

[Gatordev]

Yeah, that would be interesting to hear...if you can share. I actually wasn't directing my "missing the point" statement at you, you just had the link about the fuse. Interesting stuff.

 

[skidkid]

Adjsuting the time fuze is very different from a prox fuze that senses it is close and detonates. A prox fuze on an RPG wouldnt do too much good since it is a shape charge warhead and the energy basically goes in one direction very intensely vice a designed SAM that would blast out with some kind of frag material to maximize the potential for a kill.
True prox fuzes are still rather large and complex for manportable systems currently fielded.
The Somlali shoot down was a wake up call but should not make the RPG out to be the boogy man that is seems to be to the unitiated. I have had grunts express more concern on an insert for RPGs than manpads. It is a threat, yes you can monkey with it but it is still a short range rocket designed to shoot at tanks and APCs.

There are a bunch of shoot downs missing from that list but Im going to go ahead an wave off listing them (sorry boys)

 

[Pags]

I would think that Manpads would be a much bigger threat, since they have guidance and are designed to take out a/c. Of course, if you're sitting there hovering to fastrope troops, I'd think that you'd be a pretty big, fat, predictable target. of course, i know zero about any of this stuff, just thinking about when it would be easiest for an untrained lunk like myself to get off a shot that might be worthwhile.

 

[FlyinSpy]

The "horse's mouth" on this issue is NGIC; I'll check with them on Tu to see what they have to say. Might not be able to post the actual answer, but it would be good to get the straight skinny. So to speak...

There's an interesting degree of ambiguity from NGIC and other sources on this issue. If you have an interest in this topic and a SIPRNET account, PM me with your SIPR address and I'll shoot you the summary. (Am TDY to scenic, sunny Las Vegas this week, so it may take me a few days to get back to you.)

 

[Gatordev]

I have spent so much time trying to disavow my SIPRNET accournt, and now that I don't have access to it, you give me a reason to use it. Sheesh.

 

[Bevo16]

I don't know of any Navy/Marine helos that were shot down due to being hit in the tail rotor. I know that with our flight profile, you would have to be David F'ing Crockett with an RPG to score a TR hit. Army pilots sitting in a 80 foot hover in the middle of a city make a much easier target for an RPG no matter what kind of fuse it has. Hell, you can lob a hand held grenade far enough to take out the TR of a Blackhawk in that profile.

Stay low, stay fast, stay safe.

 

[Gatordev]

Riiiiiight, but as has been said, according to Mark Bowden's report, some of the aircraft weren't just in a hover and they weren't hit directly in the T/R gearbox. So the question still was how accurate that report was.

 

[Bevo16]

It's going to be tough to de-brief the skinny who shot down the Blackhawks in Somalia and find out what his technique was.

My only point is that you are going to have to be an ace with an RPG to hit a helo that going like balls-out at tree-top level. You can't write a tactic to defeat a golden BB. We have the best gear to work against IR threats and the tactics to defeat them. Our flight profile is the best defense vs the RPG. If that is all the enemy has to bring against us, I like my chances that day. IR MANPADS are a different story.

 

[Gatordev]

:banghead_ I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Ahh, the internet.

 

[skidkid]

Its tough to fast rope guys in while going low and fast.

We are treading very close to OPSEC stuff at this point but remember low and fast is not always teh answer sometimes a 2000' pattern doing diving fire for us or a spiral down for the assualts is the answer. Ask any Viet Nam era guy about high alt tactics. It depends ont eh MANPAd threat and if your stuff is working.

Dont lock step fall in love with a certain tactic, remain unpredictable and you will remain alive.

 

[skidkid]

Ok as near and dear as tactics is to my heart. I think we are getting close to discussions being held in ready rooms and in the interest of all their safety Im going to go ahead and close this thread. Any additions to the lsit Chuck published may be from sensitive sources and lets not tip our hands to Muhammed internet.

Closed.