• Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?

    Go here:

    Edit Account Details and Profile

He would have my vote.

careerO-3

New Member
pilot
Am I the only one that feels like he is making generalizations about the religion of Islam to make his points? I am no expert on the religion, but I always thought that the religion was being exploited by the terrorist groups in order to give some kind of credibility to their cause.
 

mmx1

Woof!
pilot
Contributor
Oooh, I get it now. We're not at war for our security. We're waging war to impose our ideology of religious tolerance at the point of a sword, so he can go to Mecca with his Bible and his cross.

Excellent "strategic-level thinking"
 

Treetop Flyer

Well-Known Member
pilot
I think he made some good points but I can't really take him seriously. Even if you really thought you needed to fight Islam in general, saying so in public isn't very bright.
 

CAMike

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
Interesting points on both sides of this discussion.

I submit the following: Let's say the majority of people around the world believe in "God", a God may be referred to by different names by different religions right? Let's say the majority of these believers are open to the idea that we all refer to a "God" and the morally sound teachings of all these various religions.. Are you with me so far?

Why is it that one particular religion has a seemingly disproportionate number of followers who claim that there is only one God (their God) and one main prophet/disciple, and that the rest of the world and all their religious beliefs are discarded without debate into the "non-believer" trash bucket? I'm not trying to get into a discussion of religions. I'm saying that possibly Mr. West has spoken with some devout muslims and he may have a different perspective than the general public about how these folks would like to see their religion grow worldwide and at what personal cost they are willing to pay to see this concept through. I've read that some of their present day leaders have a real dislike for western culture and wether you like it or not- we're a big part of that western culture.

Our company always preaches safety right? - if we choose to ignore the indicators of trouble...

Just saying think about the big picture -whether Mr. West's delivery is the issue or not. Vote for him? That depends on who the other choices are at the time.
 

m26

Well-Known Member
Contributor
I submit the following: Let's say the majority of people around the world believe in "God", a God may be referred to by different names by different religions right? Let's say the majority of these believers are open to the idea that we all refer to a "God" and the morally sound teachings of all these various religions.. Are you with me so far?

Why is it that one particular religion has a seemingly disproportionate number of followers who claim that there is only one God (their God) and one main prophet/disciple, and that the rest of the world and all their religious beliefs are discarded without debate into the "non-believer" trash bucket? I'm not trying to get into a discussion of religions. I'm saying that possibly Mr. West has spoken with some devout muslims and he may have a different perspective than the general public about how these folks would like to see their religion grow worldwide and at what personal cost they are willing to pay to see this concept through. I've read that some of their present day leaders have a real dislike for western culture and wether you like it or not- we're a big part of that western culture.

I'm not sure we can discuss this without getting into (comparative) religions, but I'll give it a shot.

First, I don't grant your premise. Strictly by the numbers, you are probably right, but the western religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) tend to adopt a single-path theology, the Mormons being the only major denomination that spring to mind as an exception. The eastern religions, however, do tend to be more pluralistic, with Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism, and Taoism being more or less open to the possibility of receiving morally sound teaching from various faiths (generalizing greatly - eastern religions are not my thing).

But either way, the problem is that people are reacting to the fact that "one particular religion has a seemingly disproportionate number" of shall we say zealots. I am not aware of any demographic information to back that up, however. Islam is complicated by its structure, with two major branches and an enormous number of powerful leaders whose opinions can sway both followers and public opinion. Like Christianity, in particular, there are a host of traditions that cannot be traced precisely back to the holy text. It is harder, then, to separate Islam as a belief system or a religion from the perception of Islam we get from these varied sources. Strictly speaking, however, Islam is FAR more open to the idea of religious pluralism than Christianity and Judaism.

The reason for this is that Islam, in theory, proclaims that there is one (and only one) god, Allah, and that this is the Abrahamic God. While orthodox Islam has many pillars of faith, the only one of major significance is belief in Allah, and because Allah is the traditional god of the Jews and Christians, these believers will find themselves in paradise. Christianity and Judaism, on the other hand, have highly exclusive theologies (which I can explain, but expect I don't need to).

While I can't speak for LTC West's experience, I have spoken to "devout" (Arab-)American, Saudi, and Kuwaiti Muslims and they have reinforced the view of Islam I just offered. It is my Christian friends, in fact, that hold the view that you seem to find so troubling. They abhor many aspects of our "western" culture (abortion, homosexuality, pre-marital sex, etc) and speak out against them, while espousing a "my way or the highway to hell" theology. This is the same basic position held by many conservative Muslims, and it can't be acceptable for one group and unacceptable for the other.
 

HercDriver

Idiots w/boats = job security
pilot
Super Moderator
You want to talk about those who attach themselves to shady individuals? As much as I hate changing the subject, I couldn't help but see a striking resemblance between your words, and these guys. Well, I guess our definition of 'shady' would have to be the same to agree on this. My definition of shady is communist and/or radicals. If you think I've mislabeled any of these individuals, please correct me.

Van Jones

John Holdren

Carol Browner

Ezekiel Emanuel
You think these people are "shady" radicals? Please step away from the Kool-Aid, my subject changing friend.
 

OUSOONER

Crusty Shellback
pilot
I just wish everyone had a chance to go to places in the Middle East in a non-military capacity/when the country isn't devastated by war, and see how the people treat you.

I have and the people treated me like a rock star...part of it was simply because I WAS American and they went out of their way to show me that they in no way resembled their government.

You can film 3,000 + people at a KKK rally and post it all over the interwebs and mass media...people will assume that is what is going on "over there". We do the same thing with regards to the Middle East. Over there the governments use fear and terrorists tactics "in the name of Islam" to keep control. It is not the way of life..it has nothing to do with the Koran. They have no problem killing their own people who speak out against them as they do killing Americans/Christians...again, NOTHING to do with Islam.

These radicals are spawned from a young age...and it's a continuous cycle. When there is no one to stop it at the grass-roots level, the problem is never going to end...history will show that this sort of radicalism can spread to the masses regardless of religion. When there is a power vaccum..the guy with the biggest gun will seize control and use ANYTHING within their means to keep control..in this case, they use Islam.

hilter_youth_mind_contol.jpg
 

FlyinRock

Registered User
With all these arguments about muslim vs christianity, why not toss the IRA arguments into the mix and get inflamatory? It seems to me, the majority of wars in history have been started with disagreements in religion. Well, my whole stance is, if you choose to abrogate the rules in my society, and you choose to abuse them, you are not welcome in my society. How you choose to leave is up to you but I will use force to remove you if necessary.
Semper Fi
Rocky
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
What are the things you're never supposed to discuss in polite company? "Religion, politics, and race," right?

Anyway, to state the obvious, Islam is not the problem. Radical Islam is. Unfortunately radicalism has spread greatly of late. Even more unfortunately, it's like a hydra-the more heads you cut off, the more it grows. Declaring war on Islam as a whole only radicalizes the whole lot. A billion people is a lot of enemies. This guy may be able to win a battle or two, but lose the war.

At the same time, anyone who says Christianity is anywhere near as bloody as Islam is engaging in dangerous levels of PC moral equivalency. If anyone mentions the Crusades, they need to join the current millenium. It's been awhile. Northern Ireland? One, to a large extent, that was an ethnic fight, not a religious one. Even at their HEIGHT, N. Ireland in "The Troubles" was still safer than most American cities. It was the safest war one could possibly fight in.

If one seriously believes Islam is more tolerant than Christianity, try an experiment. Get a Koran, then hold it in plain view over your head and walk all the way through Vatican City and into St. Peter's Cathedral. You will then turn around and safely walk out and back into the streets of Rome, unmolested.

Fly to Mecca with your King James Bible and see how long your stroll lasts there....
 

incubus852

Member
pilot
I couldn't see the link, but I'm pretty sure a colleague posted this video to their facebook profile. And I watched it and sort of went "eww... politicizing the military."
 

incubus852

Member
pilot
The man's main claim to fame is that he threatened an unarmed man with his weapon, I guess it takes real fortitude and bravery to play Jack Bauer in real life. Give me a fucking break, the man deserved his walking papers.

He has an incredibly simplistic view of Islam and has chosen to attach himself to others, some of them a bit shady, who have similar views that thankfully don't get taken too seriously by those in charge, even in the Bush administration who were 'hardliners'. As has been pointed out here before, you can take a hard look at any major religion and find a similarly bloody history, even those who claim they were fighting for 'Christianity' have very recent blood on their hands. The simple fact is is that the vast majority of Muslims don't wage war against us and aren't violent. Without some of our close allies in the Mid-East, who happen to be Muslim, we would be having a much harder time trying to wage war in Iraq and Afghanistan.

From his narrow-minded critique of the UAV strikes in Pakistan (Comparing them to LBJ's micromanagement of the air war in Vietnam? Really?) to saying that he doesn't have a problem with Muslims, just Islam, his arguments are simplistic and while they make for great speeches, are mostly wrong. Thank goodness he won't get into office, though maybe then he will stop trumpeting himself as Lieutenant Colonel. Okay, we get it, you were in the Army.....hoo-ah.

roger. ball.
 
The man's main claim to fame is that he threatened an unarmed man with his weapon, I guess it takes real fortitude and bravery to play Jack Bauer in real life. Give me a fucking break, the man deserved his walking papers.

I would say so- since he sacrificed his career in order to save his men's lives. That's not fortitude? So what if a crooked Iraqi policeman needed a change of underwear and an icepack.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I would say so- since he sacrificed his career in order to save his men's lives. That's not fortitude? So what if a crooked Iraqi policeman needed a change of underwear and an icepack.

Again, why did have have to do that when hundreds of other unit commanders have not? What makes him so special? And I have seen no confirmation that his 'tactic' worked other than his claims.
 
Again, why did have have to do that when hundreds of other unit commanders have not? What makes him so special? And I have seen no confirmation that his 'tactic' worked other than his claims.

I haven't seen anything that suggests he is lying. Innocent until proven guilty. Do we take his word over the word of the insurgent fucking rat cop who was trying to kill Americans? Maybe what he did was wrong, but from what I've read about the incident- he did it to save lives and he made no attempt to cover it up- he went straight to his CO. He wasn't looking after himself. He accepted the consequences of his actions.

If you want to question his politics or are offended by his speeches- go right ahead- but I don't think it's right to assume he's a liar and a coward because you
wouldn't vote for him.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I haven't seen anything that suggests he is lying. Innocent until proven guilty. Do we take his word over the word of the insurgent fucking rat cop who was trying to kill Americans? Maybe what he did was wrong, but from what I've read about the incident- he did it to save lives and he made no attempt to cover it up- he went straight to his CO. He wasn't looking after himself. He accepted the consequences of his actions.

If you want to question his politics or are offended by his speeches- go right ahead- but I don't think it's right to assume he's a liar and a coward because you wouldn't vote for him.

He blatantly broke the law, what the hell makes him so special compared to all the other CO's who haven't? And as for saying it worked, he might have a mistaken impression that just because nothing happened that what he did prevented something. And I am sorry, what do you call a person who beats up and threatens the life of an unarmed man? A stud? Either way, his judgement is fucked up and I don't think he belongs in the military or elected office.
 
Top