Graduate school and my career...

[LetsFly]

Evening all,

I'm looking for some advice from naval aviators on my future career. I'm currently a midshipman and have a pretty good shot at going Navy pilot (NAMI willing) as well as the opportunity to apply, and potentially be accepted to some prestigious graduate programs (MIT, Stanford, Oxford, etc).

I've gotten advice from a handful of aviation mentors and received seemingly contradictory sentiments. My end goal is to be competitive for TPS and then whatever tours may follow that. I also think that having a master's from a good engineering school would help me land a solid job after the Navy.

Does anyone have experience with grad school and how it affects a pilot's timeline? I'm aware that it would put me behind my peers (by at least a year, depending on what program I do) and that could be harmful to my fitreps and therefore getting a desirable second tour. What are the potential benefits? Does big Navy really care about me having a master's? What opportunities are there for me to get a master's as, let's say, an O-3 or O-4?

I realize that this is a long ways a way and a lot stands between me and my second tour, but planning never seemed to be a bad idea. I greatly appreciate any input you all have.

 

[KTBQ]

In most circumstances, active duty is incompatible with full time, in residence, masters programs. Your best chance would be to go immediately after commissioning, before flight school. There are other very competitive programs, such as Oldstead or Pol/Mil, that become available post JO fleet tour.

 

[LetsFly]

In most circumstances, active duty is incompatible with full time, in residence, masters programs. Your best chance would be to go immediately after commissioning, before flight school. There are other very competitive programs, such as Oldstead or Pol/Mil, that become available post JO fleet tour.

What are they looking for in applicants to post JO grad programs? Good undergrad grades, or performance in your JO tour? Also, how do those programs affect your career - generally a positive thing?

 

[Short]

This truth may change...a 2 year program is two years spent non observed, which is two years behind your peers. A 1 year program will have less impact. The Nob time may hurt your ability to make LCDR, and subsequently department head. Good DHs and front offices should factor this when figuring out when to roll you to shore duty if you are early out of the gate with performance. Post grad after commissioning will also potentially make it more difficult to get to TPS, as TPS incurs a one year nob that your detailer may not want to buy, as it makes promoting to O4 even more challenging. However, all of this is accurate as of this and the past year, and may change radically by the time you are in the window for O4. Do what is best for you, just realize that there may be consequences.

 

[Pags]

It has the potential to mess with your timing a lot. i went to AIGEP for a year and then, due to backups in the pipeline, spent another year in the pools at Pcola. I tried to play catch up the rest of my time in the Navy to no avail. however, I did get a real masters out of it while I was still smart and had no other responsibilities like a wife, kids, or day job to juggle. My masters has been advantageous in the outside world. In hindsight the thing to do would have been to take a one year leave of absence to delay my commissioning and got the MS as a civilian and then commissioned. This was an option in NROTC but don't know if it's possible at USNA. B

 

[MIDNJAC]

PM me if you want a better explanation, but while the Navy might sell you on the idea right now, you will be fighting an uphill battle with timing for the rest of your JO career. Statistically, you will probably not screen for operational DH, much less CO/XO. TPS will probably not be an option if you do a masters post commissioning and go VFA/VAQ pilot (based on significantly longer time to train than any other community out there).

 

[LetsFly]

PM me if you want a better explanation, but while the Navy might sell you on the idea right now, you will be fighting an uphill battle with timing for the rest of your JO career. Statistically, you will probably not screen for operational DH, much less CO/XO. TPS will probably not be an option if you do a masters post commissioning and go VFA/VAQ pilot (based on significantly longer time to train than any other community out there).

Looks like it's an easy decision then. It's hard to get such frank answers out of senior officers at the Academy some times... Maybe because it's been a while since their JO tour. Much appreciated!

 

[yoyotanker]

I might be a little late to this party, as it sounds like you've made a decision; but here's my experience. I got sent VTs during my shore tour and did a distance masters through Penn State while there that the Navy paid part of. I had no free time during those 2 years, and while I got an MBA out of it, I would much rather have gotten the good deal Harvard, Stanford, Wharton business school other communities seem to be able to swing. Fast forward and I FOS'd on my first look at O-4 with 3 competitive EPs and no timing hiccups. When AIRLANT made the rounds, I asked if JOs needed to be looking at a masters and JPME to be competitive and was told that he never went to grad school and he made admiral. To hear that tells me the Navy doesn't value education and it's not a major influence, at least at the O-4 board level. In my opinion, a degree from MIT or Oxford may affect your chances at TPS and promotion, but should have a significant positive impact on your post Navy life. Nobody can see the future and it's possible you could do everything right and still end up in the same place as if you'd gone to school and lost a year or two of timing. There are just so many variables that can't be accounted for. A CO who doesn't like you or unintentionally screws your timing, no quotas for TPS or maybe they need a Paddles and you aren't one. There's also the knowledge atrophy of not applying a degree for 10+ years that needs to be considered. You need to decide what your priorities are and if you want to sacrifice a great opportunity in the hopes you'll meet whatever promotion goals you hold. If you don't see making CO, admiral, CNO, or whatever as a life goal but just a nice to have, I say go grad school.

Disclaimer: I may be jaded because of my FOS situation (I did pick it up on the 2nd look); however I also see value now in planning your life as if the Navy will no longer require your services in 10 years. Also, be aware there's not a lot of TPS guys in the upper ranks, at least in the VFA community.

 

[MIDNJAC]

I have yet to see a VFA skipper come through the Airwing Fallon syllabus with a TPS patch on the shoulder. A few with FRS history, mainly SFTI/TOPGUN patch. That shouldn't influence your choice, but it is what I have seen (or not seen).

 

[LetsFly]

Does that mean that they go down a different career path or that TPS guys tend to not get command in general?

yoyotanker's answer is what I typically get when I ask around and in a lot of ways it just makes me want to pull my hair out...

 

[MIDNJAC]

I think mid husker or seven helmet, a couple of our resident TPS grads would be more qualified to answer, but from the guys I know, they have some options available at the senior O-4 and O-5 level that most do not. Those might not involve being an operational skipper, but they are important acquisitions jobs. My post wasn't at all meant to deter anyone from TPS.

 

[BigJeffray]

I have yet to see a VFA skipper come through the Airwing Fallon syllabus with a TPS patch on the shoulder. A few with FRS history, mainly SFTI/TOPGUN patch. That shouldn't influence your choice, but it is what I have seen (or not seen).

They're out there and one was there in July/August actually but I agree that they aren't nearly as common as people who went other routes. As for taking time out to get your Masters before flight school, I know more people who got bit in the ass doing that than didn't. Timing is extremely important and hard to control. This is one of the times you can control it.

 

[Beans]

So I did the AD master's after commissioning. I went to a top-level school and got an MS in Aero Engineering. It's going to open doors for me, which is great considering I'm FOSx2. Part of why I'm FOSx2 is because of the degree. Most of why I'm FOSx2 is because I am an ROTC instructor (+2nd Masters FTW!).

What my OI told me when I was deciding whether or not to do it was that it was impossible to predict how the BUPERS tides would be flowing in 10 years (less reliable than tides) to evaluate my promotability. The opportunity wouldn't present itself again in my career and I have to kick ass either way to make O-4. With that in mind, I did it.

The thing is, with the current environment, I could've not gotten the master's, done everything just right, and still gotten the boot. With that in mind I'm happy I did it. If I could've taken a 2year LOA to get it, I might've done that, but actually, getting the boot right now is working out well for me, because (checking my tide tables...) I know I'd have been a goner anyway w/ the ROTC tour, so I'd probably be given the worst boat job available for 18 months to serve out my MSR.

I initially wanted to be a test pilot, etc - here's how that worked out for another guy I know who got the same degree as me. He went hornets, did great, was a perfect candidate for TPS, and was told because the master's + training took so long, he didn't have the time remaining post-TPS to make it to his DH tour on time. It's in the application message. So it is actually possible to make yourself ineligible for TPS by getting a very TPS-applicable master's.

So there's some more conflicting data points. I'd say if you know being a squadron CO is your goal, and you're going to make every sacrifice to get there, then you don't need _this_ master's degree. You'll get the NPS MBA or something like that down the road.

 

[Uncle Fester]

...I initially wanted to be a test pilot, etc - here's how that worked out for another guy I know who got the same degree as me. He went hornets, did great, was a perfect candidate for TPS, and was told because the master's + training took so long, he didn't have the time remaining post-TPS to make it to his DH tour on time. It's in the application message. So it is actually possible to make yourself ineligible for TPS by getting a very TPS-applicable master's.

Exhibit #1,234A for our 'how the Navy values timing over education and experience when it comes to filling jobs' file.

I saw this kind of kookiness more than once while working at Pax.

 

[LetsFly]

Thanks for all of the feedback.

Does anyone have any experience with the career interruption program?