Generation Kill

[phrogpilot73]

Thanks for the link. I wonder if he is any relation to the former Commandant, I would be suprised if he is not with a unique name like that.

Not directly related...

SHOUP, ZOLA DeHAVEN
On January 28, 2003. Preceded in death by her husband, General David Monroe Shoup, United States Marine Corps (Retired); Survived by daughter, Carolyn Lamar of North Carolina; brother, Floyd DeHaven of Indiana; granddaughters, Catherine Chase of New York, Vicky Watkins of North Carolina, Martha Shoup of Colorado; grandson, Kenneth Shoup of Virginia; and great-granddaughter, Becky Watkins of North Carolina.

Funeral services will be held on Thursday, February 13, 9 a.m. in Fort Myer Chapel. Interment Arlington National Cemetery. In lieu of flowers, memorial contributions may be made to National Museum of Women in the Arts, 1250 New York Ave., NW, Washington, DC 20005.

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/shoup.htm

 

[Rocketman]

Really? Cause I just watched it and all I really got out of it was the following:

1) Godfather is kissass who is concerned only with pleasing his superior. This was tempered by his explanation on the CAS evac situation, but it's been a growing theme through the 3 episodes.

2) All officers save Fick are incompetent, self serving, or stupid. Sometimes all three. Wow, The Basic School must be really easy....

3) The war is incredibly disorganized and there is no overarching strategy.

4) Marines routinely engage unarmed civilians, with the not so veiled implication that it is intentional.

5) Every decision is questioned publicly and in a tactless way, which then results in public threats of NJP and court martial.

6) Marines, including NCOs and SNCOs, routinely question the competency of their commanders in front of and with their subordinates.

I could go on, but why bother. I continue to like the portrayal of enlisted Marines and how they view the world. I understand that "Generation Kill" strives to portray the war from the perspective of an enlisted grunt. However, the last episode seemed to go out of its way to paint Marine Corps leadership in a very negative light. It seems to me that it is very easy to take pot shots at combat decisions, but they really don't appear to be at all concerned with being fair. I am not a grunt so this is an uneducated guess, but if the leadership of that battalion was really as bad as they were portrayed in that episode then it is a miracle that anyone in the battalion lived through the first 3 weeks. They are either the luckiest Marines alive, or "Generation Kill" has exaggerated or distorted events to make the point that its author and directors wanted to make, regardless of whether that is fair or not. I am leaning toward the latter. I will definitely continue to watch, but this "officers suck" theme is wearing thin.

Long post. Sorry......

I'm a big fan of HBO mini series in general so I may be a bit biased but I really like this one.

I wasn't in the Gulf War so I can't comment on the shows accuracy there. As you say it's TV after all so who cares. Exaggeration and distortion sells newspapers AND TV shows.

I spent 3 years in the fleet with 1/4 and 2/6 in a weapons platoon. Cold war '75 - '78. I was an assault man section leader, cross trained in guns and mortars. I have to say that I think todays Marine Corps is much better than the Corps I knew. Viet Nam and Jimmy Carter one after the other was pretty tough on the green machine.

Based on my experience I do feel like they got it mostly right. Especially from a junior grunt NCO point of view. The interaction between enlisted and their peers and enlisted and their officers is pretty much spot on. A little over the top maybe but not by much.

Keep in mind that these kids are 18 to 20 years old. Most have no intention of being career Marines. They have almost zero visability into what is going on outside of their very small world. The leadership (officer or NCO) you feel will help keep you and your buddy alive is good people. The ones likely to get you killed are very close to being your enemy. They suck. Period. Grunts see pretty much black and white. Not much room for gray.

I rarely saw officers or senior NCOs decisions or their competency publicly questioned. It did happen though. Once and only once I saw my company commander crush a platoon commander in public. The Captain was the best I ever served under and the boot Lt was an ass who was going to get somebody killed. I'm sure the CO tried to straighten him out off line first. It just wasn't working and it got to the point that it was obvious to every one anyway. Needless to say the guy was gone shortly there after. To a man we would have followed our CO to hell. Not because he ruined a junior officers career but because he protected his Marines above all else.

Couple of other observations.

I never cared much about my BN CO one way or the other. That was way over my head.

I never knew a SgtMaj like the one on the series. Not ever. Every one I ever met in the grunts was a Marines Marine.

I knew several 1stSgts like in the series.

Never met a mustang that wasn't a great leader. To a man they were good to go.

When a new officer showed up if he wasn't wearing an expert rifle badge that was strike one. If he couldn't out PT me that was strike two. He might come back from an 0 and 2 count but it made his job harder for sure. Don't be that guy.

 

[skidkid]

Unfortunately the SgtMaj portrayed in the series though a caricature is not far from the mark. It seems many focus on headgear and haircuts at the expense of mission accomplishment. They are a minority of all SgtsMaj but a sizeable one nontheless. The SgtMaj I had during my time in the Grunts wasnt so impressive.

 

[Junkball]

Truthiness

A cheap way to minimize reflection and glare.

This is undoubtedly the case, but wouldn't the reduced glass surface area make picking up targets downrange MUCH more difficult? I don't understand glassing desert 3-1,000 meters away through a riflescope with 60% of the FOV covered, while bouncing up and down in a Humvee at 40 mph, as shown by Sgt. Colbert.

Also, how could someone as incompetent as Capt. America lead people, especially after his outbursts on the radio, much less assaulting EPW's? Even if it is a rather extreme portrayal of the man, I can't imagine his leadership not noticing his multiple instances of odd and/or dangerous behavior (especially the radios! Wasn't the command element on the same comms?)

 

[Uncle Fester]

Also, how could someone as incompetent as Capt. America lead people, especially after his outbursts on the radio, much less assaulting EPW's? Even if it is a rather extreme portrayal of the man, I can't imagine his leadership not noticing his multiple instances of odd and/or dangerous behavior (especially the radios! Wasn't the command element on the same comms?)

Heh. You'll learn...you'll learn.

No, seriously: in the same way that the junior guys are insulated from the decision making up top, more senior leadership frequently is insulated from the behavior of their subordinates. They know what they hear from the subordinates in question, but frequently they're more concerned with their higher. It's just how it is.

The really good senior leaders know how to keep their ear to the ground and Spidey-sense attuned to rumblings from below, and can cull problem children before it gets out of hand. But if you relieve a guy - an "unprogrammed loss" - you don't get a relief. It's a rare senior officer who wants to do something like that just before or during going into combat.

 

[skidkid]

If you ever want to know what is going on in your squadron unit etc go have a cigarette in the smoke pit, dont smoke go have a cigar. Get there light up shut up and listen the things you learn will amaze you and inform you.

 

[Harrier Dude]

.... if you relieve a guy - an "unprogrammed loss" - you don't get a relief. It's a rare senior officer who wants to do something like that just before or during going into combat.

This is why it's so difficult to get a commission. The screening, selection and training is very rigorous to weed these types out before they fail in the fleet.

Is it a perfect system? Sadly, no. But if you have to fire an officer, combat or not, there's no place to hide them. They're very difficult to separate and their presence is a severe burden and distraction to the command.

It's not like you can just FAP them to the S-4 to empty shitcans, although that thought has crossed my mind.

 

[phrogpilot73]

When a new officer showed up if he wasn't wearing an expert rifle badge that was strike one. If he couldn't out PT me that was strike two. He might come back from an 0 and 2 count but it made his job harder for sure. Don't be that guy.

And that's a perfect example of how things are black and white in the grunts. I would have probably gone 0-2 with your initial "strike" system. Truth be told the grunts did make fun of me for being a sharpshooter (tanked it on qual day in TBS and hadn't been back to the range since), and were amazed that I hadn't been to the rifle range in 8 years. They shut up real quick when I outshot them with both the rifle and the pistol. I was also never a PT stud, more of a middle of the road guy - no matter how hard I tried. But I did what I expected my Marines to do - gave 110%. Combined with my knowledge and experience - I made up for where I was lacking. So much so that I've had guys who I barely knew ask me to renlist them, and have written countless letters of recommendations for guys that I worked with in the battalion. I still keep in touch with most of the SNCO's from the battalion I was in.

Unfortunately the SgtMaj portrayed in the series though a caricature is not far from the mark. It seems many focus on headgear and haircuts at the expense of mission accomplishment. They are a minority of all SgtsMaj but a sizeable one nontheless. The SgtMaj I had during my time in the Grunts wasnt so impressive.

I haven't seen the series (we don't subscribe to HBO), so I don't know what the guy in the series is like. However, I think I tend to agree with you, because I can count on one hand the number of SgtMaj's that have earned my respect (and I started counting from when I was a PFC). The good ones are good, but the bad ones are really bad. The ones that are retired on active duty are merely oxygen thiefs.

If you ever want to know what is going on in your squadron unit etc go have a cigarette in the smoke pit, dont smoke go have a cigar. Get there light up shut up and listen the things you learn will amaze you and inform you.

+1. It was amazing what I learned in the smoke pit (and made it a point to go down twice a day - there is a day crew and night crew after all). It's almost as if it's a free-fire zone - they'll talk about anything under the sun. It was there that I learned one of my Marines wanted to go to USNA - and started helping him get in (unfortunately, even though he was supposed to graduate this past May and commission as a 2ndLt - they found a degenerative back condition during his pre-commissioning physical and he was medically discharged). The other added benefit is that you get to see just how small their world is, and you can (within reason) explain why things are happening the way they are. Give them a window to your world, albeit a small window.

 

[Rocketman]

And that's a perfect example of how things are black and white in the grunts. I would have probably gone 0-2 with your initial "strike" system. Truth be told the grunts did make fun of me for being a sharpshooter (tanked it on qual day in TBS and hadn't been back to the range since), and were amazed that I hadn't been to the rifle range in 8 years. They shut up real quick when I outshot them with both the rifle and the pistol. I was also never a PT stud, more of a middle of the road guy - no matter how hard I tried. But I did what I expected my Marines to do - gave 110%. Combined with my knowledge and experience - I made up for where I was lacking. So much so that I've had guys who I barely knew ask me to renlist them, and have written countless letters of recommendations for guys that I worked with in the battalion. I still keep in touch with most of the SNCO's from the battalion I was in.

Yup. I'll choose someone who is dependable with a full count over a home run hitter anytime. (I don't know how I got on this baseball kick) You earned their respect for sure.

To be fair I should have pointed out that grunts look at most new guys the same way, officer or not. It's probably just amplified a bit if the Marine in question might soon hold your life in his hands (ie junior officers and staff NCO's.) There isn't much else to go on at first. The expert qual badge buys you a little more time and maybe a little slack while proving yourself. That said if a guy can't shoot (or call in arty and CAS), can't hump a ruck AND can't lead he's no good to a grunt in combat. Black and white for sure.

Sounds like I got lucky with my SgtsMaj.

 

[Rocketman]

you can (within reason) explain why things are happening the way they are. Give them a window to your world, albeit a small window.

Good gouge for sure.

 

[Scoob]

The other added benefit is that you get to see just how small their world is, and you can (within reason) explain why things are happening the way they are. Give them a window to your world, albeit a small window.

Used to give the maintainers a "this is where we are, this is what we're doin'" chalk talk about once a week or so as Det Ops. Paid huge dividends.

 

[Gatordev]

Used to give the maintainers a "this is where we are, this is what we're doin'" chalk talk about once a week or so as Det Ops. Paid huge dividends.

Wait, wouldn't that require Ops to know such things? I keed, I keed!

 

[invertedflyer]

Watching Episode 4 tonight... followed by a showing of Flags of Our Fathers. I noticed that the actor that plays Lt. Fick in Gen. Kill plays an obscure role in the platoon in Flags of Our Fathers. Any info on this?

 

[Flash]

Watching Episode 4 tonight... followed by a showing of Flags of Our Fathers. I noticed that the actor that plays Lt. Fick in Gen. Kill plays an obscure role in the platoon in Flags of Our Fathers. Any info on this?

IMDB is your friend.

 

[bluesig1]

anyone still watching the show?