If you're talking about VT jet squadrons, that's not a surprise at all. There's enough problems getting enough O-4s into fleet seats.
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FY2018 O-4 Board
- Thread starter NUFO06
- Start date
Wonder if the shortage of instructor pilots becomes so bad that the Navy will entertain the thought of contractors in the training command?
They'd have to hire the same people that are getting out and going to the airlines. Good luck with that. They won't be able to compete in salary. Increasing the reserve presence in the VT's is the only simple solution I see.
North Field already has twice as many reservists as South Field - despite roughly the same amount of trainer aircraft and active duty instructors (very SORE point at South Field...)
Using SelRes can help. I am wondering how many pilots would pass on the big bucks of the airlines to have a job where they are home every night and every holiday. Lot to be said for that if you have young children.
Why if they can have both?
Is not filling those production seats a realistic approach from an HR standpoint? The number of post-DH flying billets is pretty minimal, but it doesn't have / shouldn't be that way. Why limit this to non-due course O-4s? What if a due course O-4 knows he has no desire to go past command and 20 years? He doesn't need joint credit and going to that joint job to hand out basketballs is certainly a waste of their talent. What if they had spent those 22 months - 3 years at the FRS, or VTs, instructing young Naval Aviators / NFOs in how to be great NAs / NFOs? I'm willing to bet there are plenty of VT COs out there that would love to have the experience of a post DH O-4 in their commands. The only issue is you would have to figure out how to not have this decision influence the command screen board.
I've noticed that there are guys who want to be Admirals / CAGs / Skippers of the boat and will take the shittiest of jobs to get there. There are also guys that want to make it to 20 years and then go and enjoy some time with their families while raking in the cash from the airlines. Let the admiral-to-be take the joint job and get his check in the box. Let the guy going to 20 actually be a productive member of Naval Aviation.
As someone who did a shooter tour, NPS and is now in a joint staff billet i don't mind the staff work. I would like to go back to the squadron but I am satisfied to do 3-4 more staff tours and retire. The QOL is great and being able spend the majority of my weekends at home with my kids is amazing. But I won't be able to continue to use my Navy grad degree and JPME and instead will be shown the door in about 8-9 months. I don't mind thou as doing staff work opens so many doors to jobs you never knew existed.
To clarify, there are dudes out there who are productive members of Naval Aviation, due course, took the joint gig (more for the guaranteed 22 months of shore duty than any professional aspiration), and are still getting out at 20. See also: Aviation Command Retention Bonus, then look at number of VFA/VAQ CO's leaving when their command tour is up. Many, certainly not all, of those guys managed to have fun along the way without once considering major command.
But the idea of letting post-DH aviators go down to Training Command to instruct seems like a win-win, and one that probably needs more consideration.
Side note, I think the Command Retention Bonus is more "free money" in the sense that guys taking it were going to stick around anyway. It's not going to convince a guy who is planning to retire to stay. At least not at the paltry sums they're offering now. And honestly, from the guys I'm talking to, it would have to exceed the DH bonus to move the needle, maybe.
But the idea of letting post-DH aviators go down to Training Command to instruct seems like a win-win, and one that probably needs more consideration.
Side note, I think the Command Retention Bonus is more "free money" in the sense that guys taking it were going to stick around anyway. It's not going to convince a guy who is planning to retire to stay. At least not at the paltry sums they're offering now. And honestly, from the guys I'm talking to, it would have to exceed the DH bonus to move the needle, maybe.
Fly inter-island at Hawaiian and you can have both.
In some form, this is pretty much what I've managed to make happen for myself, though it was mostly my wheeling and dealing (and luck/timing), albeit still getting promoted. I had the added luxury of quitting once, but from the AC side, this seems like a doable solution.
One potential issue that I could see come up would be if limiting/reducing first tour JO IPs in order to make room for the post DH fliers would create career issues for the JOs. Probably not as big a deal for helo guys, since the pool is larger, but might affect VFA guys since there's fewer bodies to begin with who go to the RAG to get their ticket punched. At the end of the day, total billets is based off of PPF, so from a funding perspective, you can't just add additional O-4 billets.
Still, seems like an possible answer to a question PERS isn't really concerned about asking.
That's a different perspective, thanks. I think the real sticking point for the late-career staff tour is being taken out of the cockpit right before retirement, and not being able to use that hard-earned "joint credit" for anything. Most of us aren't worried about putting food on the table (although money can be a motivator, reference Hal's post above), but do spend a lot of time planning for jobs which will be rewarding, and play to our strengths. With some obvious jobs such as FRS/VT IP going unfilled, it's hard to fathom why guys are still being told the only option for them after an operational DH tour is to go fly a desk somewhere.
I do see the value of having operationally experienced guys in staff jobs (and joint-experienced guys as squadron COs) but, like others, I also believe staffs should be kept as small as practical to minimize the "good idea fairy". Administrivia is part of what is already driving guys bananas as it is.
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It's plenty useful... it provides a knowledge base to use while poking fun at the service the other pilot, who you share the cockpit with on a trip, flew for after you get out...
That's assuming not being current doesn't keep you from that post-Navy flying job.
Hahahaha, not in today's hiring environment.
Sure, it may not be the "dream" job right off the bat but a military trained pilot will have a flying job waiting for them when they decide to seperate from the service... especially now that companies have designed military transition programs to get folks current and qualified to fly their aircraft.
The trend I've noticed amongst friends looking to get out or on the fence about taking a resume building flying job is they seem to fear they're going to get locked into some place they don't like... the beauty of the civilian world is that there's no 8yr commitment to go through company training. All it takes to leave is a resignation letter that can be effective as soon as the word "immediately" but usually gives 2 weeks notice. The very worst case is if they take "bonus"money and leave early for that dream job they pay it back. My last company, pilot attrition ranged from 36-56% annually in the last 3 years from guys mostly leaving to go to the majors.
If advanced and FRS flight attrites can be picked up for professional flying jobs (and they can- I know one of each hired into a military transition program at an airline), someone with a fleet tour under their belt can, even with a large gap of non flying on their resume (I had a 4 year gap cockpit to cockpit myself when I first re-started flying professionally).
I understand that coming off of the lost decade of virtually non existent hiring in the aviation industry folks on active duty really have trouble comprehending just how in demand their skill set is on the outside right now. 5 years ago when I left my tour at the VTs I doubted I was ever going to fly again (because back then you needed flight currency to even get a flying job and I was headed to a boat tour and getting out after), this past spring I decided to resign from my first civilian flying job before I had anything else lined up and I ended up having my first interview invite 30 minutes after I submitted my application. In another instance, late one night I submitted an application and got woken up to a phone interview call the next morning.
Truth: non of those companies were legacy airlines, but non of them cared that they weren't my career destination. I was at a corporate outing after I accepted a job at my current company had a Vice President level senior manager tell me she figured it wasn't going to take too long for me to get hired on with Delta, with my resume if I wanted to go there- and she didn't care in the slightest (in fact she offered me another drink). Right now companies on the outside are just happy that they're filling seats in new hire classes and actually use the fact that they're a pathway to the legacies as a selling point to recruit.
The industry is cyclical, but now is a good time to get into it.
It's back in VP and pretty formalized. The first bunch of guys who did it under its current iteration are in the middle of their DH tours now, so it will be pretty interesting to see how they end up.