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Fighter gap ignores real world reality??

The Chief

Retired
Contributor
Representatives and Senators from both parties love the military more than anyone else it seems sometimes, especially when it comes to the procurement side. I just don't see big, drastic cuts coming down the pike anytime soon, especially if the PAK FA keeps flying and a Chinese carrier sets sail.

May be, but I have it on good authority that China has some serious problems of it's own, ones that many people who talk up the threat of China conveniently seem to ignore all too often.
They are a rising threat but not as big as many suppose. That according to my trusted sources on the Internet.:icon_tong
 

HackerF15E

Retired Strike Pig Driver
None
Just look at the direction Gates has forced the AF to go: gutted the Raptor and Lightning, and amped up unmanned (and non-fighter type) assets to historic levels. Tells you a little bit about what he thinks is important.
 

HeloBubba

SH-2F AW
Contributor
Just look at the direction Gates has forced the AF to go: gutted the Raptor and Lightning, and amped up unmanned (and non-fighter type) assets to historic levels. Tells you a little bit about what he thinks is important.

Intel gathering...
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
May be, but I have it on good authority that China has some serious problems of it's own, ones that many people who talk up the threat of China conveniently seem to ignore all too often.
They are a rising threat but not as big as many suppose. That according to my trusted sources on the Internet.:icon_tong

Exactly! ;)
 
A

AlexSmart

Guest
If the powers at be keep us at our current op-tempo we will have a bigger gap then what is being reported now. Leave it up to our leaders to ask us to do more with less. And I think the Navy is about to see bigger cuts sooner than most think.

Let me start by saying I am only a college grad with nothing to base his ideas off of than a personal interest in the military and the politics/policy decisions that go along with this issue... There are obviously a lot of people on this thread "in the know" and have much more experience than I, but here's my two cents:

Even within the current context (widespread opinion in politics for the need to reduce deficit spending + perception of a liberal Obama administration), I don't foresee the higher-ups in the military simply letting a significant capability/fighter gap be overlooked. As we saw with the Iraq War, when generals truly felt our military was being put in a bad situation they expressed their disapproval VERY publicly. If President Obama and Sec. Gates started to let things slide I believe our Navy's retired Admirals would feel an obligation to do the same.

IMO, even those who are solidly liberal and believe our defense spending needs to be controlled (myself being one) believe that the U.S. should allow itself to be at a disadvantage in terms of a "fighter gap".
 

magnetfreezer

Well-Known Member
Let me start by saying I am only a college grad with nothing to base his ideas off of than a personal interest in the military and the politics/policy decisions that go along with this issue... There are obviously a lot of people on this thread "in the know" and have much more experience than I, but here's my two cents:

Even within the current context (widespread opinion in politics for the need to reduce deficit spending + perception of a liberal Obama administration), I don't foresee the higher-ups in the military simply letting a significant capability/fighter gap be overlooked. As we saw with the Iraq War, when generals truly felt our military was being put in a bad situation they expressed their disapproval VERY publicly. If President Obama and Sec. Gates started to let things slide I believe our Navy's retired Admirals would feel an obligation to do the same.

IMO, even those who are solidly liberal and believe our defense spending needs to be controlled (myself being one) believe that the U.S. should allow itself to be at a disadvantage in terms of a "fighter gap".

Ask those who served under Carter or Clinton during the post-cold war "peace dividend" how that worked out.
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
Um...you mean the President G.H.W. Bush's "peace dividend?"

I really don't have a gripe about reducing the military, as long as it's part of an overall deficit reduction strategy, not so that the savings from cutting the military go to our bloated entitlement programs.

Our defense budget is as big as it's ever going to get. That's reality. So far, we've been taken Yogi Berra's strategy..."When faced with a fork in the road, take both." We want to be a lean, mean, counterinsurgency force while simultaneously being prepared to engage a peer competitor on the high seas.

We have to scale back to a sustainable path. If we want a light, highly mobile force for hunting down insurgents and terrorists and doing crisis response, we can have a very good one. Same for a force for engaging the Chicoms. You can't have both. Gates is just telling us the truth. I'm inclined to think that fighting terrorists is more useful than preparing to fight a large-scale war with China.
 

Fog

Old RIOs never die: They just can't fast-erect
None
Contributor
I'm inclined to think that fighting terrorists is more useful than preparing to fight a large-scale war with China.[/QUOTE]

Unless, of courses, we ever have to fight the Chinese. Also, if that's the case, why is the Navy buying some 380 F-35C's? But then, we haven't paid for any of them yet, either. Personally, I'd rather darken the skies with Super Hornets than have half as many F-35s that are really just AW attack pukes anyway.
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
...and if dolphins ever develop opposable thumbs, we're all fucked.

This reminds me of how some commanders set priorities. "So, out of these things, which is most important?"

"All of them."

That's not setting priorities, that's setting up for failure all around. We'll always retain some conventional war capability, but it always comes down to priorities.

I'm a lot more worried about the Chinese economic threat than the military one.
 

eddie

Working Plan B
Contributor
What deficiences does the force we are building today have when it comes to taking on a large conventional foe? Is it easier to ramp up a counter insurgency force to face China, or visa versa?
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
They both face major deficiencies trying to go the other direction.

However, many will say it's easier to scale up than scale down. After all, you can always use "big war" equipment to blow shit up, but light infantry never fares well against tanks.

At the same time, trying to honor every threat equally causes as many problems as it solves. You have to base your planning and purchases around the most likely contingencies, not every contingency.

You can take four snow tires with you when you're travelling to Mexico, just in case there's a blizzard, but it'll probably just detract from your original mission of watching the donkey show in TJ. You go down the street trying to find the place somebody told you about. Meanwhile, your buddy thought he would get a BJ in the back seat from a stripper, and he's too drunk to get the tires outta the back seat, so he slips, falls, passes out and gets beaten and robbed by the kids you didn't buy Chiclets from. You finally get back to the car, and it's gone. You don't have the money to bribe the Federales to get the car back, because you blew your paycheck buying the damn snow tires. So you're broke, stuck in a shithole, your buddy's in a Mexican hospital with a doctor who got his degree in Panama, and Juan the patrolman is driving your brand-new ride, all because you decided to cover any conceivable possibility.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
What deficiences does the force we are building today have..... Is it easier to ramp up a counter insurgency force to face China...
A counter-insurgency force to face the ChiComs ... ???

Military age 18–49 (compulsory de jure; voluntary de facto):

Available for military service 654,229,201 males, age 16–49 (2009 est.) 429,058,000 females, age 16–49 (2009 est.)
Fit for military service 472,294,719 males, age 16–49 (2009 est.) 350,991,416 females, age 16–49 (2009 est.)
Reaching military age annually 11Million~ males (2009 est.) 10Million~ females (2009 est.)
Active personnel approximately 2,255,000
Reserve personnel 1,200,000
Deployed personnel:
Overseas: ~300 anti-pirate personnel in Somalia
Paramilitary: approximately 4,100,000
Total: 19,740,300~

(source: CIA database)

Soooooooooooooo ... what 'kine 'deficiencies' and what 'kine 'ramping up' vis-a-vi the ChiComs did you have in mind .... ???

The ~ 300 anti-pirate personnel in Somalia, perhaps, perchance to dream ... ???
 

Swanee

Cereal Killer
pilot
None
Contributor
They both face major deficiencies trying to go the other direction.

However, many will say it's easier to scale up than scale down. After all, you can always use "big war" equipment to blow shit up, but light infantry never fares well against tanks.

At the same time, trying to honor every threat equally causes as many problems as it solves. You have to base your planning and purchases around the most likely contingencies, not every contingency.

You can take four snow tires with you when you're travelling to Mexico, just in case there's a blizzard, but it'll probably just detract from your original mission of watching the donkey show in TJ. You go down the street trying to find the place somebody told you about. Meanwhile, your buddy thought he would get a BJ in the back seat from a stripper, and he's too drunk to get the tires outta the back seat, so he slips, falls, passes out and gets beaten and robbed by the kids you didn't buy Chiclets from. You finally get back to the car, and it's gone. You don't have the money to bribe the Federales to get the car back, because you blew your paycheck buying the damn snow tires. So you're broke, stuck in a shithole, your buddy's in a Mexican hospital with a doctor who got his degree in Panama, and Juan the patrolman is driving your brand-new ride, all because you decided to cover any conceivable possibility.


So did you get your "Treated by a Mexican Doc" waiver cleared through NOMI?
 
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