I think Peter Segal said on Wait,Wait...Don't Tell Me,"A bunch of short-haired guys who are very neat, workout a lot, and are into travel. Nothing gay about that at all..."
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DADT repealed
- Thread starter GreenLantern330
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Here's my unabashed take on this. The military is the last bastion of honor and morals in this country. Pretty much everybody else in society has caved.
I base my moral belief system on my religious values, and like it or not, or agree with it or not, those are the same values this country and the military are based on, I have a hard time reconciling a break down in those values. If society decides that some deviation from those values are acceptable, then what next? If today something is not allowed, but enough of us want to do it anyhow to raise a stink and impose our way on the rest of society, what then is the basis of our values?
The topic today is homosexuality. What happens tomorrow when with the rampant unemployment we have more and more people resorting to theft to feed their families? At 10% unemployment, possibly as high as 17% when those who have stopped looking for jobs are factored in, they represent a lot higher percentage of society than the homosexual crowd. Who are we to judge somebody who resorts to theft to get by? If its a question of survival, then they really have no "choice," right? So if they have no "choice," it must be ok, right?
As the Muslim community grows, and they press for their right to conduct honor killings (the kind where they kill their daughters or sisters for losing their virginity out of wedlock, or committing adultery, or "allowing" themselves to be raped, etc), and they get away with it, what's to keep other segments of society for pressing for the right to kill others they disagree with? We already allow murder of the unborn, and we are on a slippery slope to caving to the Muslim community in the interest of political correctness. Is it that far of a leap for a non-Muslim to see somebody eye-balling his wife or daughter and decide that is a capital offense punishable immediately?
Am I being extreme and unreasonable? Maybe, I bet to a lot of people I am.
I have friends who are gay, and I love them like brothers. I have friends who have cheated on their wives, or stolen things, or lie regularly or are alcoholics, do drugs, or are promiscuous or other such things. I don't judge them for it, but I still tell them they are wrong or call them on it. I still hang out with them, but I don't pretend that their immoral activities are ok. Who am I kidding, drunken debauchery and promiscuity are fairly well revered in the military. So, double standard, I freely admit that. None of us is perfect and I'm trying hard not to judge. There is a difference between saying something is wrong or right and judging somebody for doing something wrong. All those things I mentioned are wrong, but we seem to have socially accepted some of them as more wrong than others (reference my comment on drunken debauchery and promiscuity). As the things that are considered less wrong become acceptable they become considered right instead of wrong. When we allow that to happen, where is the line drawn? What becomes our basis for right and wrong? There are many things in our society that are generally wrong or illegal but we condone them as long as you don't get caught. Cheating on your taxes, maybe fudging the numbers a little bit, speeding "keeping up with traffic," running a red light on the way to work when you're late is ok as long as their's no cops or cameras, cheating on your significant other is ok if you are "two TACANs away from home," etc, etc. I'm not being righteous here, I'm just saying that things that are wrong are wrong whether we want them to be or not, whether we do them or not, whether we openly accept or condone them or not. Again, I'm not perfect either. The bible warns about drunkenness but I sure like to tie one on every once in awhile. It also says not to do other stuff I am not good about following either. But just because I do them knowing they are wrong doesn't mean I go out with a mission to convince everybody else that what I'm doing is ok. Does that make me a hypocrite based on everything else I'm saying in this post? I don't know, maybe I am.
BTW, for the record, I'm a not a "fun" libbo partner if you want to cheat on your spouse. I won't tell her about it afterwards if that's what you're thinking, but what will happen is I'll eject you from the situation before you make a bad decision. Its been mentioned several times about the rampant cheating among married folk? Really? Aren't we officers here? If you see it happening and don't the balls to tell the guy he's wrong if he's sober or grab his collar and take him home if he's drunk, you are doing a disservice to your buddy and the service. I'm obviously not open to the "married people cheat so homosexuality is ok" argument.
I know people who are gay are competent, capable, self-less, and more than able to serve on the front lines and defend our country. And I know what they do in private has absolutely nothing to do with their ability to fight. I don't see anything dramatic coming up, ie, I honestly don't see somebody being shot in the back in "friendly fire" or thrown overboard from a ship on a dark night. Realistically, the only real impact will be for those of us who are officers or SNCO's who now have more "sensitivity" training to provide to the men, more paperwork to do when somebody claims harrassment, and more walking around on tip-toes trying not to offend somebody in a way that will ruin a career. Administrative procedures aside, the true impact is that we are officially accepting the degradation of our moral values. And that's my fundamental opposition to this.
I base my moral belief system on my religious values, and like it or not, or agree with it or not, those are the same values this country and the military are based on, I have a hard time reconciling a break down in those values. If society decides that some deviation from those values are acceptable, then what next? If today something is not allowed, but enough of us want to do it anyhow to raise a stink and impose our way on the rest of society, what then is the basis of our values?
The topic today is homosexuality. What happens tomorrow when with the rampant unemployment we have more and more people resorting to theft to feed their families? At 10% unemployment, possibly as high as 17% when those who have stopped looking for jobs are factored in, they represent a lot higher percentage of society than the homosexual crowd. Who are we to judge somebody who resorts to theft to get by? If its a question of survival, then they really have no "choice," right? So if they have no "choice," it must be ok, right?
As the Muslim community grows, and they press for their right to conduct honor killings (the kind where they kill their daughters or sisters for losing their virginity out of wedlock, or committing adultery, or "allowing" themselves to be raped, etc), and they get away with it, what's to keep other segments of society for pressing for the right to kill others they disagree with? We already allow murder of the unborn, and we are on a slippery slope to caving to the Muslim community in the interest of political correctness. Is it that far of a leap for a non-Muslim to see somebody eye-balling his wife or daughter and decide that is a capital offense punishable immediately?
Am I being extreme and unreasonable? Maybe, I bet to a lot of people I am.
I have friends who are gay, and I love them like brothers. I have friends who have cheated on their wives, or stolen things, or lie regularly or are alcoholics, do drugs, or are promiscuous or other such things. I don't judge them for it, but I still tell them they are wrong or call them on it. I still hang out with them, but I don't pretend that their immoral activities are ok. Who am I kidding, drunken debauchery and promiscuity are fairly well revered in the military. So, double standard, I freely admit that. None of us is perfect and I'm trying hard not to judge. There is a difference between saying something is wrong or right and judging somebody for doing something wrong. All those things I mentioned are wrong, but we seem to have socially accepted some of them as more wrong than others (reference my comment on drunken debauchery and promiscuity). As the things that are considered less wrong become acceptable they become considered right instead of wrong. When we allow that to happen, where is the line drawn? What becomes our basis for right and wrong? There are many things in our society that are generally wrong or illegal but we condone them as long as you don't get caught. Cheating on your taxes, maybe fudging the numbers a little bit, speeding "keeping up with traffic," running a red light on the way to work when you're late is ok as long as their's no cops or cameras, cheating on your significant other is ok if you are "two TACANs away from home," etc, etc. I'm not being righteous here, I'm just saying that things that are wrong are wrong whether we want them to be or not, whether we do them or not, whether we openly accept or condone them or not. Again, I'm not perfect either. The bible warns about drunkenness but I sure like to tie one on every once in awhile. It also says not to do other stuff I am not good about following either. But just because I do them knowing they are wrong doesn't mean I go out with a mission to convince everybody else that what I'm doing is ok. Does that make me a hypocrite based on everything else I'm saying in this post? I don't know, maybe I am.
BTW, for the record, I'm a not a "fun" libbo partner if you want to cheat on your spouse. I won't tell her about it afterwards if that's what you're thinking, but what will happen is I'll eject you from the situation before you make a bad decision. Its been mentioned several times about the rampant cheating among married folk? Really? Aren't we officers here? If you see it happening and don't the balls to tell the guy he's wrong if he's sober or grab his collar and take him home if he's drunk, you are doing a disservice to your buddy and the service. I'm obviously not open to the "married people cheat so homosexuality is ok" argument.
I know people who are gay are competent, capable, self-less, and more than able to serve on the front lines and defend our country. And I know what they do in private has absolutely nothing to do with their ability to fight. I don't see anything dramatic coming up, ie, I honestly don't see somebody being shot in the back in "friendly fire" or thrown overboard from a ship on a dark night. Realistically, the only real impact will be for those of us who are officers or SNCO's who now have more "sensitivity" training to provide to the men, more paperwork to do when somebody claims harrassment, and more walking around on tip-toes trying not to offend somebody in a way that will ruin a career. Administrative procedures aside, the true impact is that we are officially accepting the degradation of our moral values. And that's my fundamental opposition to this.
^ Excellent. Above average commentary ...
GreenLantern330
Active Member
SWACQ, while I do disagree with a few things you mentioned, such as your talk of "what will be considered acceptable in society next," you did make a lot of valid points. You are entitled to your own set of beliefs, and I respect that and while your values and morals most likely coincide with that of the American military, the same does not go for society, at least in my opinion. I myself am a Christian so I most likely hold similar beliefs as you, but America is not a theocracy so it would be unconstitutional to incorporate religious beliefs into policy making. With that said, though, I'm sure most policy makers make decisions with not just their constituents in mind, but also their own personal beliefs, including religion.
I, personally, do not believe that homosexuality will lead to more corruptive behaviors in society, but that's just me.
Finally, I'd like to say that I love the approach you took on composing your stance, and I can tell you put a lot of thought into it and I respect your opinions and thoughts on the subject. I like how you ended it, and I wish this thread could just end on that note.
I, personally, do not believe that homosexuality will lead to more corruptive behaviors in society, but that's just me.
Finally, I'd like to say that I love the approach you took on composing your stance, and I can tell you put a lot of thought into it and I respect your opinions and thoughts on the subject. I like how you ended it, and I wish this thread could just end on that note.
That's reasonable, respectful, an appropriate request, and probably the right thing to do ...
Closed.
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