China Maneuvers for U.S. Defense Contracts

[Fog]

[QUOTE=Flash;675677]Well, considering we hold very considerable sway over the Egyptian government and military while we hod absolutely none over the Iranian regime, what more than a couple of statements could we have done with the Iranians? Sell them arms for hostages? Eh, another administration tried that, didn't work out too well from what I remember.

Let's make sure I understand you correctly, Flash-O: It's OK to trash an allied regime, demand their leader step down & its people riot in the streets, but we have to suck-up to enemy states & never, ever, encourage its people to revolt? What planet do you live on? Are you involved in the intelligence business on my tax dime? Your observations, IMHO, just get weirder & weirder

 

[Random8145]

Well we also used to be home companies like Hughes Aircraft, Grumman Ironworks, etc. And in case you haven't read the news, we aren't even going to bother putting men in space anymore much less on the moon. We are relying on China and Russia for that.

I think we are only relying on Russia for that, not China. China only put a man into space to orbit around the Earth, otherwise their space program is nothing special (last I checked anyway).

Also, provided Spacex is successful, we will be able to launch our astronauts by ourselves.

We are still home to companies like Northrop-Grumman, Boeing, Raytheon, Lockheed-Martin, General Dynamics, BAE Systems, along with being the world's largest manufacturer still (and unlike the Chinese, we manufacture a lot of complex stuff, such as industrial machinery, automobiles, jet engines, advanced electronics, and so forth, so even if the Chinese exceed us in manufacturing things, in terms of complex, quality goods, the U.S. will probably still dominate for a long time).

So I hope nationalism and the U.S. defense lobby wins out on that one.

 

[RHPF]

BAE Systems

To be fair, British Aerospace Engineering is not an American company.

 

[gparks1989]

... we manufacture a lot of complex stuff, such as industrial machinery, automobiles, jet engines, advanced electronics, and so forth, so even if the Chinese exceed us in manufacturing things, in terms of complex, quality goods, the U.S. will probably still dominate for a long time).

So I hope nationalism and the U.S. defense lobby wins out on that one.

The computer your typing on, as well as 90+ percent of its components, including motherboard, were made in China (possibly Taiwan, but by this point Delta, Quantta, Foxconn et al have all outsourced to the Mainland). Chances are, so is the server this website runs on. Not disagreeing with you that US still leads (it does, by a 40 percent margin), nor that we reign supreme on a lot of fronts, but China does a whole lot more than build toys covered in lead paint. In fact, it produces all the things you listed - with the exception of jet engines, I think.

I'm pretty sure the fact that the Chinese have aligned themselves with a company that posted a multi-million dollar loss, is known for pushing an Antonov product as the next generation air tanker and is otherwise obscure, has already assured that this bid's going nowhere.

 

[BigRed389]

The computer your typing on, as well as 90+ percent of its components, including motherboard, were made in China (possibly Taiwan, but by this point Delta, Quantta, Foxconn et al have all outsourced to the Mainland). Chances are, so is the server this website runs on. Not disagreeing with you that US still leads (it does, by a 40 percent margin), nor that we reign supreme on a lot of fronts, but China does a whole lot more than build toys covered in lead paint. In fact, it produces all the things you listed - with the exception of jet engines, I think.

I'm pretty sure the fact that the Chinese have aligned themselves with a company that posted a multi-million dollar loss, is known for pushing an Antonov product as the next generation air tanker and is otherwise obscure, has already assured that this bid's going nowhere.

Don't worry, now GE's going to help them out with that.

 

[Random8145]

To be fair, British Aerospace Engineering is not an American company.

Oh, whoops

 

[Random8145]

The computer your typing on, as well as 90+ percent of its components, including motherboard, were made in China (possibly Taiwan, but by this point Delta, Quantta, Foxconn et al have all outsourced to the Mainland). Chances are, so is the server this website runs on. Not disagreeing with you that US still leads (it does, by a 40 percent margin), nor that we reign supreme on a lot of fronts, but China does a whole lot more than build toys covered in lead paint. In fact, it produces all the things you listed - with the exception of jet engines, I think.

Yes, but from what I have read, the Chinese severely lack in the area of quality-control right now, they need us to go over there to make sure they do it or they just don't. I know they build a lot of low-margin stuff, the higher-margin, more complex things, I'm not sure. I don't think Chinese-made cars have a great reputation for quality yet for example.

 

[Flash]

Let's make sure I understand you correctly, Flash-O: It's OK to trash an allied regime, demand their leader step down & its people riot in the streets, but we have to suck-up to enemy states & never, ever, encourage its people to revolt? What planet do you live on? Are you involved in the intelligence business on my tax dime? Your observations, IMHO, just get weirder & weirder

We have leverage in Egypt, absolutely none in Iran, we couldn't have done much of anything to influence the situation in Iran while we could hopefully do so in Egypt. Mubarak is on his way out and there is not much we can do to keep him in, unless we want to harm ourselves by sticking it out until he is thrown out by his people or his allies. Didn't work out too well for us with Batista or the Shah, the administration is smart by trying to stay with the rapidly evolving situation there and not propping up a faltering regime too much, headed by an 82 year old guy who isn't going to last that much longer anyways. Fortunately for us the military there seems to hold the key to stability and still has broad support with the people (unlike Iran in '78 and '79), and with the billions we have pumped into their military their Generals are keen not to let things get too out of control.

As for China trying to get US defense contracts, I find it mildly amusing that their proposal is an updated version of the Z-8, which is a license-built copy of the French Super Frelon. Damn Frogs!

 

[Fog]

Then following your logic, President Reagan should have said "Mr. Gorbachev, build that wall even higher!". This has nothing to do w/ the Shah, Fulgencio Batista & other tin-horn dictators the US has supported from time to time.

 

[gparks1989]

Yes, but from what I have read, the Chinese severely lack in the area of quality-control right now, they need us to go over there to make sure they do it or they just don't. I know they build a lot of low-margin stuff, the higher-margin, more complex things, I'm not sure. I don't think Chinese-made cars have a great reputation for quality yet for example.

If you drive a Volvo, it's owned by a Chinese car company, Jaguar, an Indian company, a large heavy industries company even attempted to by the Hummer brand. Lack of quality hasn't stopped people from buying Acer and Lenovo computers. Poor quality didn't lead a Chinese telecom giant, Huawei, to a significant portion of the market share. While Chinese cars may not have a great reputation, they'll bit hitting the American market in the next decade (probably) where they will sell like hotcakes (much like the Hondas, Toyotas etc. of the early 70's/80's). The Chinese have to have some form of qc otherwise their American clients will move onto the next company; they're a dime a dozen. As such, the Chinese have actually been forced to be good at what they do.

Lead toys aside, we've benefited immensely from Chinese manufactured goods.

 

[Random8145]

If you drive a Volvo, it's owned by a Chinese car company, Jaguar, an Indian company, a large heavy industries company even attempted to by the Hummer brand.

Yes, but in buying those companies, the Chinese acquire the quality-control knowledge they have, so they aren't really "Chinese" brands per se. volvo itself is still a European company, but they sold their Volvo car brand to Ford, who then sold it to a Chinese company.

The Chinese have to have some form of qc otherwise their American clients will move onto the next company; they're a dime a dozen. As such, the Chinese have actually been forced to be good at what they do.

My understanding is that the American companies have to make sure they do the quality control, it isn't something the Chinese do themselves. Maybe things have changed though.

Lead toys aside, we've benefited immensely from Chinese manufactured goods.

Sure, it lets stuff be cheaper.

 

[gparks1989]

My understanding is that the American companies have to make sure they do the quality control, it isn't something the Chinese do themselves. Maybe things have changed though.

Sure, it lets stuff be cheaper.

Chinese are forced to do the quality control because of the very market/global system they've bought into. They don't have a guaranteed customer in the state as they did pre-reform. If the goods produced aren't up to specs provided by American/global clients, then said clients move on. It behooves the indigenous Chinese/Taiwanese firms to ensure that they are making a suitable product, otherwise they go bust. As to the second point, beyond making stuff cheaper, it's leveled the consumer playing field for American consumers. More importantly, it has allowed American firms to cast off capital intensive/low-yield businesses in pursuit of higher level services (think Apple or IBM). It's also created completely new industries (think "apps") which in turn provide American consumers with more stuff to buy/use...which is good for our economy.

 

[Pariel]

My understanding is that the American companies have to make sure they do the quality control, it isn't something the Chinese do themselves. Maybe things have changed though.

My understanding as well. A good friend of mine spent the last three years in China building a power plant, and his complaints were always that they Chinese would cut any corners they could (which then of course the American company supervising would force them to redo -- assuming they found it.)

 

[Random8145]

Chinese are forced to do the quality control because of the very market/global system they've bought into. They don't have a guaranteed customer in the state as they did pre-reform. If the goods produced aren't up to specs provided by American/global clients, then said clients move on. It behooves the indigenous Chinese/Taiwanese firms to ensure that they are making a suitable product, otherwise they go bust.

I get what you're saying, it's generally a basic tenet of the market, but I think in the case of the Chinese there is more to it is the thing. For example, while a Western company might move on, maybe these Chinese manufacturers might also be able to find a ready supply of other firms to replace said firm if it does move on.

 

[voodooqueen]

A Chinese built Marine One helo? Noooooope.

I, for one, would not want to get into a Chinese built helicopter. Don't they make the car parts that work only 60% of the time?