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Bought my first gun today

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Why in the world would you have to reload?? Buy one set of Greek, so you have a practically limitless supply of clips, and then buy factory ammo. It's a .30-06 for crying out loud...probably the most commonly produced centerfire round in the world.
The unmodified Garand can't shoot commercial .30-06 ammo. It was designed to shoot M2 Ball, which is a softer load than the current commercial loads. M2 is different for two reasons: pressure and primers.

First, pressure. The Garand can't handle hot loads like those made commercially today. Modern ammo is designed for bolt-action rifles, which can handle higher pressures. These give greater energy for whacking [fill in large game animal here]. The Garand action can handle those too. It's supposedly stronger than the Springfield M1903, and it reportedly took well in excess of the spec'd chamber pressure in testing to break anything (read: they finally stuffed a case completely full of powder and shot it, causing a crack in a locking lug of the bolt). The weak link is not the action; it's the gas system, which modern bolt-action .30-06 hunting rifles don't have to worry about.

The Garand's action is cycled by porting gas about an inch back from the muzzle to push on the operating rod. This is why the Garand has that "double barrel" look. The lower "barrel" is where the gas piston end of the oprod resides. The other end of the oprod is the charging handle, which is attached to the bolt. So gas pressure cycles the action back, ejects the spent cartridge, than spring tension takes over and moves the bolt forward, chambering a round. Go here in lieu of a thousand more words.

The oprod happens to be a very precisely machined (and thus EXPENSIVE) part of the weapon. It is designed to work with a given pressure at the gas port. Less will not have the oomph to cycle the action. More than that will cause it to bend, breaking the rifle. There are adjustable gas cylinder locks available which supposedly allow you to shoot commercial ammo, but they come with hefty disclaimers (read: it's still your fault if you break the oprod). Thus, if you shoot $120 worth of modern ammo through a unmodified Garand, chances are you will be shelling out another $120 for a new operating rod. This is why Garands need surplus or reloads.

Second, primers. The Garand was designed, as the SKS was, with a free-floating firing pin. The tip of the firing pin will actually tap the primer when the bolt slams home. Because of the hard primers of military cartridges, John Garand could get away with this engineering technique. Commercial primers are softer. This causes a phenomenon known as SLAMFIRE where the weapon goes off as the bolt goes home. VERY VERY BAD JUJU. I'm told this can also happen if you reload with non-milspec primers, but I haven't investigated the mysteries of reloading just yet (though I have my eye on a Dillon progressive press once I acquire the funds).

Capische?
 

FMRAM

Combating TIP training AGAIN?!
And perversely, I shoot better with my Glock than with my SIGs. I'd bet a large part of it is due to the consistent trigger pull and clean break.

I'm the same way, I can shoot straighter with the Glocks, but I prefer my SIG's anyday.
 

FMRAM

Combating TIP training AGAIN?!
I personally like the M92F. Any handgun that goes bang >99% of the time is a good weapon and the M92F meets this criteria. What amazes me is that people will buy weapons that are known to jam *cough* *cough* 1911 *cough*. The only beef I have with the M92F is the ergonomics.
 

Pugs

Back from the range
None
The unmodified Garand can't shoot commercial .30-06 ammo. It was designed to shoot M2 Ball, which is a softer load than the current commercial loads.

You can shoot Federal Match or Black Hills Gold commercial but at $25 to $28 a box of twenty it's pricey. Getting into reloading will run you about $300 and having done it for over 30 years (starting with a Lee handloader in .243 when I was 16) it's a great lifelong hobby. You'll shoot more and learn a whole lot about your rifle. You'll also save money buuuuuuut like most hobbies, it can be a money pit if you want to.
 

FMRAM

Combating TIP training AGAIN?!
Just out of curiosity, why?

I'm assuming it's not due to reliability issues, caliber, or round capacity...

I have this weird ability to out shoot other people with their own pistols. Especially Marines. And the sights on my SIG suck. :)
 

scoober78

(HCDAW)
pilot
Contributor
The unmodified Garand can't shoot commercial .30-06 ammo. It was designed to shoot M2 Ball, which is a softer load than the current commercial loads. M2 is different for two reasons: pressure and primers.

First, pressure. The Garand can't handle hot loads like those made commercially today. Modern ammo is designed for bolt-action rifles, which can handle higher pressures. These give greater energy for whacking [fill in large game animal here]. The Garand action can handle those too. It's supposedly stronger than the Springfield M1903, and it reportedly took well in excess of the spec'd chamber pressure in testing to break anything (read: they finally stuffed a case completely full of powder and shot it, finally causing a crack in a locking lug of the bolt). The weak link is not the action; it's the gas system, which modern bolt-action .30-06 hunting rifles don't have to worry about.

The Garand's action is cycled by porting gas about an inch back from the muzzle to push on the operating rod. This is why the Garand has that "double barrel" look. The lower "barrel" is where the gas piston end of the oprod resides. The other end of the oprod is the charging handle, which is attached to the bolt. So gas pressure cycles the action back, ejects the spent cartridge, than spring tension takes over and moves the bolt forward, chambering a round. Go here in lieu of a thousand more words.

The oprod happens to be a very precisely machined (and thus EXPENSIVE) part of the weapon. It is designed to work with a given pressure at the gas port. Less will not have the oomph to cycle the action. More than that will cause it to bend, breaking the rifle. There are adjustable gas cylinder locks available which supposedly allow you to shoot commercial ammo, but they come with hefty disclaimers (read: it's still your fault if you break the oprod). Thus, if you shoot $120 worth of modern ammo through a unmodified Garand, chances are you will be shelling out another $120 for a new operating rod. This is why Garands need surplus or reloads.

Second, primers. The Garand was designed, as the SKS was, with a free-floating firing pin. The tip of the firing pin will actually tap the primer when the bolt slams home. Because of the hard primers of military cartridges, John Garand could get away with this engineering technique. Commercial primers are softer. This causes a phenomenon known as SLAMFIRE where the weapon goes off as the bolt goes home. VERY VERY BAD JUJU. I'm told this can also happen if you reload with non-milspec primers, but I haven't investigated the mysteries of reloading just yet (though I have my eye on a Dillon progressive press once I acquire the funds).

Capische?


I know this is the standard line...and I probably should have caveated this with "The Garand will not shoot ALL .30-06 rounds safely...however, I personally emailed Ron Ives at Federal Cartridge company when this had come up with several other Garands in the family and with friends...He assured me that all Fed. Gold Medal, and American Eagle rounds (as well as many others I won't list out of respect for his response) are safe to fire in the Garand.

Further...your statement that "modern" .30-06 ammo is designed for bolt action rifles is patently false. There are numerous .30-06 autoloaders on the market as we speak, and finally....30-06 ammunition is loaded to comply with longstanding specifications produced by the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute....SAAMI...specifically so that it doesn't damage these weapons.

Back to Garands though...YMMV...but I have personally fired at least a thousand rounds of factory produced .30-06 through Garands with no Op-rod damage and no slam fires. I am not an 18 year old idiot....Capiche?;)
 

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
None
Contributor
Agreed. I love my glock, but it doesn't even come close to the accuracy of the 1911 or M&P. Now if only I could find a nice carry revolver with good accuracy and craftsmanship in a 357 mag. The S&W 38 special I shot was too light and the recoil and trigger pull caused a lot of inaccuracy.


Unless you have a complete p.o.s.(which the majority of guns nowadays aren't), shot-out barrel, or a gun physically falling apart on you, the accuracy you experience from a firearm is almost entirely the responsibility of and caused by the shooter, not the equipment.
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Back to Garands though...YMMV...but I have personally fired at least a thousand rounds of factory produced .30-06 through Garands with no Op-rod damage and no slam fires. I am not an 18 year old idiot....Capiche?;)
Yes, it's the party line, and I admit I was speaking from book lernin' more than actual experience (or at least furious pre-purchase Googling). I just bought mine, and I'm trying to take the most conservative response so as not to allow my ignorance to result in harm to myself or my rifle. I was under the impression that SAAMI specs or no, the Garand gas system still needed babying re: gas port pressures. I'm not astute enough to geek out the numbers. Mea maxima culpa. :icon_tong
 

busdriver

Well-Known Member
None
My biggest problem with the M9 is the god awful sights. Could they have made them any harder to see?
 

Old NFO

Registered User
None
That is a real possibility. I love the historical aspects of it. The only downside I see is having to reload when the Greek Milsurp runs out, unless new ammo surfaces. I also have a thing for the M1 Carbine:D A Mosin Nagant and SKS are aslo in the running.

Ammo will not run out anytime soon, there are literally millions of rounds left from WWII and Korea.
 

NozeMan

Are you threatening me?
pilot
Super Moderator
Ya, thats the M2 Greek Ball, I believe. My buddy has a few Spam cans of the stuff. Looked to be in rough shape, but ran like a top.

I was wondering where you could find the American-made stuff from WW II/Korea.
 
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