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BEST BATTLE RIFLE ??? *GASP* as in (another) "Gun Thread"

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Fly Navy

...Great Job!
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
VetteMuscle427 said:
I'll break from all you M-1 groupies, and go with my beloved M-14. It's like an M-1 but better. No loading clips... and every bit as reliable and accurate. Some may say that 30-06 may make the M1 better... well, I think .308 will do just fine.

My personal opinion on the M-14 is that it was in service way too short and the select-fire was just silly. Great rifle, but it was definitely forced upon us. Some say the FAL is a better rifle... and the fact that it's still in use today in many countries is a testament to its life. But, that's my opinion. I know you love your M-14 :) I plan on buying one at some point.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
VetteMuscle302 said:
...I'll break from all you M-1 groupies, and go with my beloved M-14...
Fly Navy said:
........ I know you love your M-14 :) I plan on buying one at some point.

I was wondering when someone would bring up the M14/M1A.

But not so fast, smokeless powder breath. That's one of my BIG gripes --- no M14's available to the civilian market (at least virtually none and no improvement in sight -- 'Vette ... you have an M14?? It's never "officially" been made available to the public :) ... don't answer, just shake/nod your head). Better plan on an M1A, which is what you probably meant, anyway ....

m14-var.jpg
......And do NOT buy a ChiCom Norinco "M14" !!! Price is NOT everything ....
 

skidkid

CAS Czar
pilot
Super Moderator
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All the M-14s are at Norwich for drill (ok not all but a lot). They are heavy and the firing pins are removed (sort of)
 

Fly Navy

...Great Job!
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
That is correct, not many, if any actual M-14s on the civilian market. Just easier to say M-14 than M1A, which is actually a Springfield model... Norinco and other companies are not M1As. It's like calling all the semi-auto AK-47s copies an AK-47. We know it really isn't, well... those of us in the know do anyway.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
VetteMuscle427 said:
....Some may say that 30-06 may make the M1 better... well, I think .308 will do just fine.
I've already said my first love (rifles :) ) is the Springfield M1903. Having said that, in comparing accuracy between the .308 and .30-06, most knowledgeable folks who shoot high power matches quickly agree on one thing --- .308s are two to three times more accurate than the .30-06. :icon_cryi

Most top high power shooters feel the main reason the .308 is much more accurate than the .30-06 is its shorter, fatter case which promotes a more uniform and gentle push on the bullet due to a higher loading density (less air space) and a more easily uniformly ignitable powder charge.

At 1000 yards, where both the .30-06 and .308 were allowed in Palma matches, the .308 was the clear-cut most accurate of the two..... sniff, weep.

Military arsenals who produced match and service ammo in both 7.62mm and 30 caliber have fired thousands of test rounds/groups with both. They also found out that with both ammo types, the smallest groups were with the 7.62 by about 50 to 60 percent. M1 rifles in 7.62 shot about twice as small of groups as .30-06 M1s at all ranges. When the M14 was first used, there were some .30-06 M1 rifles that would shoot more accurately. It took the service teams several years to perfect the methods of making M14s shoot well, but when they did, they shot as good as M1s in 7.62.

There will always be folks who claim the .30-06 is a more accurate cartridge. All I have to say to them is to look at legitimate and proper tests run on the .308 vs. .30-06 and find out. Theory is nice to think about; facts determine the truth. I love my Springfields ..... but:

Again ..... I weep.
 

Fly Navy

...Great Job!
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
A4sForever said:
Again ..... I weep.

Is it not true though that the .30-06 has a slight advantage in energy when it comes to extreme ranges?
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
Fly Navy said:
Is it not true though that the .30-06 has a slight advantage in energy when it comes to extreme ranges?

Ahhhh .... I don't know. Very slight, if any. Maybe I can dig up some information --- or some of the rest of you can.
 

VetteMuscle427

is out to lunch.
None
A4sForever said:
I was wondering when someone would bring up the M14/M1A.

But not so fast, smokeless powder breath. That's one of my BIG gripes --- no M14's available to the civilian market (at least virtually none and no improvement in sight -- 'Vette ... you have an M14?? It's never "officially" been made available to the public :) ... don't answer, just shake/nod your head). Better plan on an M1A, which is what you probably meant, anyway ....

Ahhh yes, I do have a Springfield M1A Scout... and I love it in a way that can not be described. I don't know if I buy the part about the M-14s... Maybe no military M-14s went public like the 1903s and M1s... but... these guys seem to think they make M-14s. All in all it is just a name.

http://www.fulton-armory.com/

I was not aware of the accuracy issues between 7.62/30-06; I'll chalk that up to learning more from A4s

<All smiles in a response to A4s :) :icon_mi_1 :icon_smil :icon_tong >
 

Fly Navy

...Great Job!
pilot
Super Moderator
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VetteMuscle427 said:
I don't know if I buy the part about the M-14s... Maybe no military M-14s went public like the 1903s and M1s... but... these guys seem to think they make M-14s. All in all it is just a name.

http://www.fulton-armory.com/

They can call it an M14 all they want, it doesn't make it an actual M-14. Believe me, the BATF knows the difference.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
Grant said:

That is a GREAT chart .... thanks for the link, Grant. But I think I'd rather have 50% greater accuracy (?) over 100 fps or less and 100 ft-pounds of energy for the comparison distances. I used 150 grain Metal Case --- comparing apples to apples, I hope.

Raw ballistics are only one part of the equation. Hitting the target or X-scores at the range are the other ....

BTW, Gunnery SGT Hathcock took the 1000 yard match at Camp Perry in '65 with a 300 mag, scoped bolt gun. The day before this he got a sliver metal for the National Match course with a M1 (30-06) also went distinguished with that match. In RVN he used a 30-06 on his first tour and a 308 on his second.
 

Grant

Registered User
A4sForever said:
Raw ballistics are only one part of the equation. Scores at the range are the other ....

True.

I like my .30-06, but then again, I've never shot a .308. Its a Savage 111FXP3, not any sort of "battle rifle". :D Maybe after shooting a .308 someday, I'll like them better.
 

Lawman

Well-Known Member
None
OK I know a few people have been wondering when Id chime in on this gun thread. :D

Best Battle Rifle (in general):

First the M1 Garand in 30-06. Sorry but the deficencys of this rifle are hard to ignore. Its true the weapon was lightyears ahead of the bolt rifles arming the other armys of WWII, such as the the K98. But it was mearly the bridgegap between the rifles of the late 19th/early 20th century and the modern stamp weapons that came on line shortly after the war. Also 30-06 rounds are to long and heavy to be carried in any kind of significant load by todays standard, great for aim shooting but you run out of rounds quick with menuver doctrine. Plus that little problem of using clips and not being able to top off the weapon, thats just not good. Combat Loading is taught by any good tactical (good god I used that damn word) shooting school. This weapon would have you use 7 rounds in one fight, and walk into the next with 1 ready, you may as well just shoot the round off in the dirt and load because your not gonna get through a fight with a single shot, lest you be a much luckier man then I.

Second the M-14. While it makes up for alot of the defficiencys of the M1 such as going to the .308 which shortened by 1/2 inch (12 mm), kept the original ballistic properties due to modern propellants used. This made carrying ammo loads easier and lighter and up'd the round count of the individual soldier enough to allow for a bigger volume of fire. However the weapon was to light for its caliber (despite what you may think after humping one 15 miles in the sun). Rapid fire and burst was just impossible to control at any range that could actually make it worth while. It was mearly a modernized M1, but not modern enough with its competition at the time. Vietnam due to its enviroment pointed out weapon deficencys quickly, many point to the M-16's fickleness to any sort of dirt/grime/humidity, but The M14 was too long and too heavy to be carried all day long in hot and wet jungle. Great, and I mean just wonderful percision marksmens rifle, but not suitable for standard infantry use.

And the Winner Is (IMHO)

Heckler & Koch G3 series

For a .308 "Battle Rifle" no other weapon has a better record of excellence. Inspired by the Spanish CETME it has served with more then 50 countries (including ours unofficially) in the last 40 years and continues to be manufactured by Greece, Pakistan, Iran, Turkey, Portugal and others. Why this rifle (and not my beloved FAL Im sure A4 is wondering)?

1. Durability. For a modern .308 battle rifle there are really only 4 guns on the list, the M14, FN FAL, AR-10, and G3. The M14, we went into, and the AR-10 has not recieved any sort of support as an actual military weapon more a hey look what we did. Now why no the FAL, because the G3 contains fewer parts and combined with the precision of its high quality german engineering just performs better and is easier to take care of. Its simplicity also makes it cheaper to manufacture then any of the other rifles listed (Even if we are familiar with H&K prices and dont believe it).

2. Accuracy and Usability. H&K did a great thing when they came up with the roller delayed blowback action for this weapon. The delay made up for the defficiancys encountered by the other mainstream .308 rifles that being that the kick was to much for the average soldier to deal with limiting the ability of that soldier to put alot of rounds on a target. Also its capacity over older weapons like the M1 allow it to keep going a little longer.

3. Versatility. The weapons come standard with a claw mount that will accept a variety of optics allowing a standard rifle to quickly be made into a percision rifle. Also a bipod can be fixed and drum mags are available to allow for effective use of automatic fire in a light machinegun role.

My one complaint, get down in the prone position as a left handed shooter and try and charge the weapon, that and its civilian price are the only reasons I have a FAL and not a H&K 91.
 

The Chief

Retired
Contributor
Does anyone know how many M1 Garands the Navy pruchased chambered in .308? I had heard ODCMP auctioned of a modest lot of them some time ago.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
CHIEF: from the seek and ye shall find Department (of the NAVY ???):

The following is a listing of Secretary of the Navy Trophy rifle variations:

1. M1 Rifle Mk 2 Mod 1 Grade B match rifle in 7.62 MM with 1-minute sights. Grade B match rifles were first released by the Navy as a Trophy Rifle in 1996. It is believed that few remain in the Navy’s inventory. They are very desirable collector pieces.

2. M1 Rifle Mk 2 Mod 1 in 7.62 MM using a new SA produced barrel (1965-67 mfg.), two sub-variations; one converted by Harrington & Richardson (H&R) the other by American Machine & Foundry (AMF) of York, PA. The AMF version is by far the rarer of the two (possibly only 10%). These variants have become very scarce over the last few years.

3. M1 Rifle in caliber .30-06. Often marked “O-65, O-66 or O-67” on flat of receiver behind rear sight. These are usually encountered in unissued condition following rebuild. According to Jeremy Cheek's published article in the June 2004 issue of the Garand Collectors Association Journal, these rifles are USMC M1 rifles rebuilt at Marines Corps overhaul depots.

4. Remington Model 720 bolt action rifle. These rifles were purchased by the Navy from the Remington Arms Co. immediately following the attack on Pearl Harbor. Their hand-cut checkering is an example of pre-War craftsmanship. They have become very rare and are highly sought after by collectors. They look nearly like works of art.

Navy non-Trophy Rifle variations are:

5. Mk 2 Mod 1 Grade A match rifle in 7.62 MM with ½-minute sights. They are the rarest of all; it is believed that few, if any, have been released by the Navy. Rarest of the rare.

6. Mk 2 Mod 0 in 7.62 MM using a .30-06 barrel with insert to convert to 7.62. This is also a very scarce variation and highly sought after by collectors. I have only seen a handful of "real ones" in over 20 years. Many "faked" as the insert is readily available. Beware .....

I 'll see if I can find totals later. I have a #2 and a #4 ..... great pieces. Absolutely beautiful.
 
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