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Approach Turn Tumble
- Thread starter Dawgfan
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Dawgfan,
Maybe you can tell us exactly why it is you can't seem to relax when performing this maneuver. And also, are you in primary flight training or is this for your pilots license?
--Steve Wilkins
Maybe you can tell us exactly why it is you can't seem to relax when performing this maneuver. And also, are you in primary flight training or is this for your pilots license?
--Steve Wilkins
The main thing to remember is that you only let a little bit of your back stick out when on the relax. If you let to much out you'll fall through. As soon as you feel the power on pop the nose up and you should catch your airspeed between 70 and 80, then just hold that attitude and continue with the FTI. I had a little bit of trouble with this also at first and I actually corrected it by not relaxing at all. I just started doing a sort of Max, Roll, Ball. I would loose about 100-120' (a 4 was 150') doing it this way, then I eventually learned to finess then relax in there and rarely lost more than 50'. You will just get the feel for it. But this was all advice from my onwing and it worked for me.
Obviously, you are going to get a lot of different ways to perform the maneuver. First off, be proactive with your instructor. If you know him and like then explain to him your problems and that you would like to do one or two more ATS's then usual. I guarantee, you will be overwhelmed by his response and his instruction. "relaxing the backstick pressure" is something that many SNA's overdue. They seem to think it means to force the nose down. It doesn't. Simply stop pulling and aft and move the stick forward barely a fraction. If the IP demo's one, then watch the AOA gauge and shadow the stick while the IP is flying. You want the AOA to break out of stall but keep the AOA high as the power spools up. This will lessen the loss of altitude. AOA will be high but don't drop it to optimum, you'll be nose down after a stall....it takes time. If you have the presence of mind, scan your horizon. You may be staring inside the cockpit to much. Fly the horizon, keepin the nose just above the horizon and keep the AOA indexers in your periphery. If you can hold the indexer at a constant green chevron, yellow doughnut you will achieve a high AOA. Coordinated rudder takes a little practice but it isn't as critical. Sounds like alot but it really isn't. I'm a Big proponet of getting your brain housing group out of the cockpit and flying with what god gave you, not the goverment. Good luck. By the way, most P-3 and helo IP's have really no clue how to use the AOA indexers but jet guys live by them. They have great information especially in a stall. Frumby
Attack Pilot
Major USMC
Attack Pilot
Major USMC
quote:
By the way, most P-3 and helo IP's have really no clue how to use the AOA indexers but jet guys live by them. They have great information especially in a stall. Frumby
So far I have used the AOA in the P3, helpful for realizing where you are at for max range performance, margin above stall, best climbout, etc. Though, overall, sadly I would have to agree with you on that one as a general statement. The AOAs on some of our planes are pretty much out of calibration. The pilots could be reading 10.5 and the copilots could be reading 14 or so. Whose do you go with? Also, when was the last time I referenced the indexer in a landing? I honestly can't recall, back in the FRS?
For a lot of stuff we do, loiter operations, you can pull out the book, run the numbers, and figure out that say with all four engines running, 30 AOB, insert gross weight here, you have onset of stall buffet at 142 knots, or something like that.
By the way, most P-3 and helo IP's have really no clue how to use the AOA indexers but jet guys live by them. They have great information especially in a stall. Frumby
So far I have used the AOA in the P3, helpful for realizing where you are at for max range performance, margin above stall, best climbout, etc. Though, overall, sadly I would have to agree with you on that one as a general statement. The AOAs on some of our planes are pretty much out of calibration. The pilots could be reading 10.5 and the copilots could be reading 14 or so. Whose do you go with? Also, when was the last time I referenced the indexer in a landing? I honestly can't recall, back in the FRS?
For a lot of stuff we do, loiter operations, you can pull out the book, run the numbers, and figure out that say with all four engines running, 30 AOB, insert gross weight here, you have onset of stall buffet at 142 knots, or something like that.
Geez I wish we had an AOA indicator and roll indicator up in the pilot house on the cruiser. It would have been useful at times.
I had trouble on the ATS the first time I did it.. but here's the key:
relax the nose just enough so the horizon bisects the windscreen... as if you're in straight and level flight. I would say that the "relax" part is just 1-2" of stick movement
JAM that power in, wait for the spool time and once it kicks in raise the nose so the aircraft slows to 80KTS, then lower it for 90 and reduce power to 1015 FT-LBS.
RELAX, LEVEL, MAX simultaneously...
then BALL once you start your climb...
relax the nose just enough so the horizon bisects the windscreen... as if you're in straight and level flight. I would say that the "relax" part is just 1-2" of stick movement
JAM that power in, wait for the spool time and once it kicks in raise the nose so the aircraft slows to 80KTS, then lower it for 90 and reduce power to 1015 FT-LBS.
RELAX, LEVEL, MAX simultaneously...
then BALL once you start your climb...
An ATS in the goshawk is a lot different from the T-34. You really have to break the AOA or else you risk compressor stall. The principles are the same though. The way I teach ATS in the T-45 is to just concentrate on holding the recovery AOA and keeping the wings level with periferal vision. If I remember correctly they don't teach looking at AOA much in the T-34. Also, as your airspeed increases with recovery your nose attitude has to increase to keep the same AOA.
I was having trouble with the ATS for a while till one instructor told me to, more or less, cut out the "relax" part of it.
If you ride the plane right to the stall and be sure to never let it get past 30 degrees AOB (by doing like Mike Webb said), the plane will place itself in the recovery position in terms of pitch, then all you have to do is roll the wings level aggressively while waiting a second for the power to kick in (ie, max) before starting to pull back on the stick for recovery. In short, don't change the stick position until you have power to pull back on it. Also, be careful about jamming in too much rudder (ball) becasue this can cause you aggrivate things and lead to trouble on the recovery or, worst case, OCF.
Hope this helps, it made me go from 3s to 5s after only a few times practicing it. Good luck.
If you ride the plane right to the stall and be sure to never let it get past 30 degrees AOB (by doing like Mike Webb said), the plane will place itself in the recovery position in terms of pitch, then all you have to do is roll the wings level aggressively while waiting a second for the power to kick in (ie, max) before starting to pull back on the stick for recovery. In short, don't change the stick position until you have power to pull back on it. Also, be careful about jamming in too much rudder (ball) becasue this can cause you aggrivate things and lead to trouble on the recovery or, worst case, OCF.
Hope this helps, it made me go from 3s to 5s after only a few times practicing it. Good luck.
Steve dragged this post out, god knows why....
Hmmm, good thing for P3s, 100% on speed engines (no spool up), just move the power levers, and you have the thrust immediately thanks to the pitch change in the props. But that STILL might not save you if you try a 60 AOB turn at 200-300 feet, with an engine loitered, and letting airspeed drop in the turn while looking for the expendable to drop the next buoy in your tracking pattern (P2 anyone?). Scary HAZREP with a crew losing the bubble in just that way, the P3 had onset of stall buffet, rolled out, added power, and leveled/climbed out at like 70 feet (yikes!)...
Hmmm, good thing for P3s, 100% on speed engines (no spool up), just move the power levers, and you have the thrust immediately thanks to the pitch change in the props. But that STILL might not save you if you try a 60 AOB turn at 200-300 feet, with an engine loitered, and letting airspeed drop in the turn while looking for the expendable to drop the next buoy in your tracking pattern (P2 anyone?). Scary HAZREP with a crew losing the bubble in just that way, the P3 had onset of stall buffet, rolled out, added power, and leveled/climbed out at like 70 feet (yikes!)...
False assertion
Hi
Funny, as I remember it, most of the T-34 IP's learned how to use one in the IUT, and get even better at it as they did the OCF syllabus and while teaching studs. I wonder where you get your information. AoA is a great tool that is not often worked into the SNA scan pattern until they do Spins. Before that, if you add too many things to the scan, you can get overload, depending a lot on how quick the SNA learns things. If this young man is having trouble with the ATS, the simple thing for him and his IP to work on is the leveling the wings and letting the nose drop a bit from the horizon, and then keeping the aircraft level and on the edge of shakers until he gets a positive VSI indication.
That approach simplifies the scan, and focuses on contact, outside reference flying. Plenty of time later to add the AoA in the integrated scan.
Crawl, walk run.
Your suggestion to use the AoA guage on an ATS for an early FAM student is probably a mistake. You appear to be a real live jet guy, and you've learned to use your AoA guage, for a darned good reason. My on-wings used to have their hands full with simply using attitude flying, which is the fundamental skill you build from in FAM, getting the wings level, using the rudders near stall where they are more effective, and as you point out, not dumping the nose like crazy in initial the response to the stall at 30 deg AOB.
The trick to the ATS to the left is to use the right rudder to help you roll level while you level the wings. The ATS to the Right, the torque of the engine will help you roll left to level the wings, but you have to keep the wings level with your own hand.
Demento
webmaster said:
Hi
Funny, as I remember it, most of the T-34 IP's learned how to use one in the IUT, and get even better at it as they did the OCF syllabus and while teaching studs. I wonder where you get your information. AoA is a great tool that is not often worked into the SNA scan pattern until they do Spins. Before that, if you add too many things to the scan, you can get overload, depending a lot on how quick the SNA learns things. If this young man is having trouble with the ATS, the simple thing for him and his IP to work on is the leveling the wings and letting the nose drop a bit from the horizon, and then keeping the aircraft level and on the edge of shakers until he gets a positive VSI indication.
That approach simplifies the scan, and focuses on contact, outside reference flying. Plenty of time later to add the AoA in the integrated scan.
Crawl, walk run.
Your suggestion to use the AoA guage on an ATS for an early FAM student is probably a mistake. You appear to be a real live jet guy, and you've learned to use your AoA guage, for a darned good reason.
My on-wings used to have their hands full with simply using attitude flying, which is the fundamental skill you build from in FAM, getting the wings level, using the rudders near stall where they are more effective, and as you point out, not dumping the nose like crazy in initial the response to the stall at 30 deg AOB. The trick to the ATS to the left is to use the right rudder to help you roll level while you level the wings. The ATS to the Right, the torque of the engine will help you roll left to level the wings, but you have to keep the wings level with your own hand.
Demento
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