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Antidepressants and Aviation

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
The way you’ve described your anecdotal experience sounds like a failure in leadership/resources by the Navy than some inherent issue with the sailors.

I’ll be the first to admit my experience is anecdotal, but from taking with the folks I see at the VA, it’s quite common for folks to come out of the service with undiagnosed or untreated anxiety, depression, moral injury, PTSD and a host of other issues which they’d either denied, ignored, or hidden precisely because of attitudes like yours.

These problems are generally not anomalies in brain chemistry—they’re very natural and normal reactions to the abnormal, difficult, stressful, and sometimes outright awful things we ask our sailors and marines to do.

Respectfully, attitudes like the one you exhibited-off the cuff dismissal of these issues as something to be drummed out and disposed of-are a huge part of the feedback loop that drives this cycle.

I’m a big fan of flight docs as individuals, but NAMI and Naval Medicine are hidebound dinosaurs whose policies are actively harming many folks who don’t seek treatment for fear of losing their flight status. Ask me how I know...
Failure of resources, certainly. Leadership, not so much. The military doesn’t have the resources to do in depth psych screening at MEPS. As Flash eluded to, many issues are undiagnosed. The bottom line is that if people with mental issues aren’t deployable, then they’re processed out. This is done in coordination with mental health professionals. Nothing about it is off the cuff. Military service isn’t for everyone, and not everyone is physically or mentally qualified.
 

Swanee

Cereal Killer
pilot
None
Contributor
...or people who can fake it reasonably well, right?

Nothing could ever go wrong with having people lie about themselves.

This is the thing.

We begin to teach our young aviators from the beginning to compartmentalize their emotions. But we don't teach them how to go back and deal with those same emotions after it's over and safe to do so. They stay locked up, many times forever.

I use my experience because I feel like it needs to be told. Would something have been different? Would I have qualled at the boat instead of DQing twice? I don't know. I do know now that at the time I really didn't have any business in a jet at night behind the boat. I was dealing with a hell of a lot at home, trying to compartmentalize and convince myself that I was bulletproof, that I could handle it. My class advisor knew about my situation, my chain of command knew. They'd let me know if I needed to sit the bench for a while. But that never happened.

Everyone always asked me at every step of the way, "Hey Swanee, how were you a Commodore's List stud in flight school, graduate with a really good NSS, and then struggle through almost all of the FRS, (except one phase)." My friends kind of knew what was going on. They helped me in the same way anyone else would help their friend. But as young 1st Lts and JGs, we were limited in what we could do. And no one wanted to stop flying- especially me. I loved flying.

So was it the stress of dealing with a wife with bipolar disorder who was in and out of mental hospitals that took me down? Yeah. It was. Millions of dollars and years of training wasted because our culture and institutions view on mental health. Because I didn't believe that if I came forward and said, "Guys, this is too much, I need a break, I need help in managing this" that I would get it. Because when I did say it, I was told to compartmentalize and move on. Because after DQing the first time, I had an O-4 NFO, as the senior member of my PRB, tell me that he didn't understand why I was having a hard time, flying the ball should be easy,

That is where leadership failed me. Instead of helping me when I needed it most, they pushed me harder and harder; and when I failed they took my flight status, called me a fallen angel, gave me an adverse FITREP, and treated me like a broken toy.


So yes, leadership can do a hell of a lot more to support guys like me. There are a lot of us out there, you probably don't know it because they are too afraid of losing one of the things that really keeps them going.



As far as allowing folks with mental health issues in- I get it, in times when we don't need officers it's an easy waiver to deny. But in this day and age when doctors throw pills around like skittles on Halloween we're probably turning away some folks who could do really well. If we need people, let them in.


And once they're in, we should be doing what we need to do to keep them (if that's what they want). How many angry and disgruntled pilots are leaving for greener pastures would be a lot happier, and maybe even want to stay, if we invested in maintaining our mental healthcare as much as we do physical and dental?
 

Hotdogs

I don’t care if I hurt your feelings
pilot
gave me an adverse FITREP

That is not right. If the reason for your adverse fitrep was only for a lack of aeronautical aptitude to complete a syllabus then it is not justifiable. If there were no other ULQ (ARI, UCMJ offenses) that effected it then that’s another story. Your senior Marine did not do his homework and dealt an unnecessary blow to your career. If all that is still true, then based on the current PES manual you have grounds to get it tossed from your OMPF.
 

scoolbubba

Brett327 gargles ballsacks
pilot
Contributor
The differences between the DOD and my civvy employer are startling. The union and company have worked together to come up with trained points of contact in the pilot group who are smart on resources and can get people who are struggling pointed in the right direction with total confidentiality and no impact to their medical (with a few caveats.) They aren’t counselors, but they know who to put a struggling pilot in contact with and how different mental health issues affect a pilots ability to keep their license.

Compare that to USN where if you have a problem and admit it, you’re probably done flying for a living. Why are we surprised when no one raises their hand and asks for help?
 

Swanee

Cereal Killer
pilot
None
Contributor
That is not right. If the reason for your adverse fitrep was only for a lack of aeronautical aptitude to complete a syllabus then it is not justifiable. If there were no other ULQ (ARI, UCMJ offenses) that effected it then that’s another story. Your senior Marine did not do his homework and dealt an unnecessary blow to your career. If all that is still true, then based on the current PES manual you have grounds to get it tossed from your OMPF.

There was nothing else. No ARI, ULQ, NJP, nothing. My section I comments essentially say, "Good guy, good officer, had trouble at the boat"

As effed up as it is, having your flight status revoked in an FPPB/FSSB for failing at any point in the FRS or the fleet is a DC Adverse FITREP per the PES- "The Reporting Senior (RS) must submit a (DC) report for the following specific actions"... "(H) When the Deputy Commandant, Aviation (DC AVN) determines that a respondent to a Flight Status Selection Board (FSSB) is subject to revocation of orders to duty in a flight status..."

It's not so for flight school, but in the Marine Corps eyes, the FRS isn't flight school. I didn't have a student MOS, I was a 7523 NATOPS qualified F/A-18 pilot. I tried to get it pulled or changed, but it was denied.
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Compare that to USN where if you have a problem and admit it, you’re probably done flying for a living. Why are we surprised when no one raises their hand and asks for help?
And need I remind everyone that NAVCENT actual, a three-star officer and seasoned TACAIR aviator, just took his own life recently? Did he just have “undiagnosed issues?” Should he have been med boarded and ADSEPed? If so, when?

Demons aside, it seems like a lot of folks and a lot of boards over the years thought Sterno brought significant value to the Fleet.
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Because after DQing the first time, I had an O-4 NFO, as the senior member of my PRB, tell me that he didn't understand why I was having a hard time, flying the ball should be easy . . .
Holy dogshit, dude, that right there is just wrong on so many levels.
 

Mos

Well-Known Member
None
I went through a pretty dark time during a deployment. I got through it with the help of a chaplain. I'm not religious and don't know if chaplains can help everyone, but I tell fellow sailors to seek one out if they're hurting and are afraid of talking to anyone else.
 

CommodoreMid

Whateva! I do what I want!
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I’m probably one of the few aviators that exist that was treated before entering service and still managed to get a ROTC scholarship and then a flight school spot. As said earlier you have to demonstrate a lot in order to get that waiver. It’s almost impossible and I’m lucky to be here. And as others have said, once you’re in you can’t ask for help. It blows. Even if all you need is to talk to someone for a couple months, good fucking luck.
 

picklesuit

Dirty Hinge
pilot
Contributor
It is a pretty simple cost-benefit calculation on the part of the Navy, is it worth the risk of accepting folks with a certain set of conditions worth the possible cost to the Navy? For most mental health issues the Navy has decided it is not worth it due to the cost and other risks, likely based on past experiences and guidelines laid down by military medical professionals.

Having seen quite a few folks DQ'd from military service for a variety of reasons it really sucks for those who have a strong desire to serve but can't, but the military has to draw the line somewhere for who is qualified for military service and those who aren't. In this case for initial accessions, I think the military has made the right choice to err on the side of caution than not.
Couldn’t put it better...
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
...or people who can fake it reasonably well, right?

Nothing could ever go wrong with having people lie about themselves.
I think you're missing the mark here. The concern isn't that someone will have some kind of freak out mid-flight, it's that they have, or will develop a chronic problem that leads to a permanent NPQ after a bunch of resources have been poured into their training.
 
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