A few IFR departure questions

[AJTranny]

Hey guys. It was that time of year again for me. I am speaking of course of Instrument refresher class. A few interesting and often confusing topics came up and I was hoping for some insight from a professional line guy.

First, the " Trouble T" section for our theoritical rwy said "climb rwy hdg to 4000msl prior to making any turns." However, our ATC clearance said " on departure turn right 090 climb and maintain 6000. The question was, is ATC expecting us to remain on rwy hdg to 4k prior to turning because thats whats published in the "Trouble T" or is ATC expecting the turn at the standard IFR 400 AGL because this is now an ATC clearance and not part of a DP. The room was divided on this one.

New day, new jet. Trouble T section says our rwy requires 514ft/nm clb gradient to 3500msl. (We dont use published alternate t/o mins) Does this gradient apply to any type of departure for that rwy whether it be radar vector, SID, ODP? Assuming of course no separate clb gradient is published anywhere else.

Thanks in advance.

 

[webmaster]

What was the weather at the field at that time?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[AJTranny]

At least 3710 T/O mins but even if it were CAVU our community wants crews to prove 3 engine climb gradient would be sufficient to clear all obstacles.

 

[AJTranny]

...so weather doesnt really change the game for us very much.

 

[HAL Pilot]

If it was a civilian airfield, ATC would normally expect you to turn at 400 agl no matter if you are VFR or IFR. If you lost an engine, then they expect you to follow the runway out procedure for that runway (is that what you mean by "Trouble T"?). If there is no engine out procedure and you popped one, they would expect a turn between 800 and 1000 agl which is the standard engine out acceleration altitude.

So in your first scenario, normally I would turn right at 400 agl to 090 and climb to 6000. If I lost an engine, I would fly runway heading to 4000 msl then turn to 090 and climb to 6000 (again assuming Trouble T is your engine out stuff).

Second scenario, if the Trouble T is indeed an engine out procedure requiring a 514ft/nm climb gradient, then yes it would apply to any type of departure on that runway. But if you can meet it engine out, there is no problem meeting it with all engines so no problem.

If Trouble T is not engine out, ignore my post and forgive me for speaking out of school (civilian vice military rules).

FYI, a DP will not give you a turn below 400 agl either. But I have seen some engine out procedures (rwy 08L at HNL) where it is an immediate turn (don't even wait until 400 agl) for obsticle clearance at a single engine rate of climb.

 

[torpedo0126]

Hey guys. It was that time of year again for me. I am speaking of course of Instrument refresher class. A few interesting and often confusing topics came up and I was hoping for some insight from a professional line guy.

First, the " Trouble T" section for our theoritical rwy said "climb rwy hdg to 4000msl prior to making any turns." However, our ATC clearance said " on departure turn right 090 climb and maintain 6000. The question was, is ATC expecting us to remain on rwy hdg to 4k prior to turning because thats whats published in the "Trouble T" or is ATC expecting the turn at the standard IFR 400 AGL because this is now an ATC clearance and not part of a DP. The room was divided on this one.

not sure if my limited experience will help but I was always taught with instrument departures (and I am simplifying slightly) DVORSS (divorce): Diverse, VCOA, Obstacle, Radar vectors, SID, special command approved. So basically, since there was a trouble T you would not fly a diverse departure, you would fly the obstacle departure. However, you received radar vectors meaning ATC assumed "responsibility for obstacle clearance by vectoring the aircraft prior to reaching the minimum vectoring altitude by using a Diverse Vector Area (DVA)...." This quote goes onto explain it more thoroughly. Reference: 2010 FAR/AIM pg 709 paragraph 5-2-8c2.

 

[AJTranny]

HAL "trouble t" as we call it refers to the "T" on our approach plates that reminds us to check the front of the pub called "alternate takeoff minima" because that rwy either has nonsrd t/ o mins or obstacle dept procedures. That's where it describes civilian alternate t/o wx mins ( doesn't govern us) obstacle departure procedures, and required climb gradient if standard wx mins used. Im not familiar with different climbout based on losing an engine but our TOLD requires us to clear any obstacle or make any required obstacle clb gradient with one engine inop. If we can't get the required gradient on three engines we have to either drop weight or try another rwy

Im not sure how different our pubs are from yours but I imagine y'all have a similar section in your pubs?

 

[AJTranny]

My apologies if im confusing things but I wasn't referring to engine out procedures, just standard IFR departures and ATC expectations. Thanks.

 

[jollygreen07]

Meh... Just tell Roger that this is TACAMO and you do what you want.

 

[AJTranny]

So if you are given a heading to fly on departure it is a diverse vector area? If that's the case are you still responsible for any published non std clb gradients listed in "alternate takeoff minima" Note we don't use civilian t/o wx mins but adhere to the line that says ...or standard with min climb gradient of xxxft/nm to xxx ft.

 

[AJTranny]

Good call

 

[jollygreen07]

So if you are given a heading to fly on departure it is a diverse vector area? If that's the case are you still responsible for any published non std clb gradients listed in "alternate takeoff minima" Note we don't use civilian t/o wx mins but adhere to the line that says ...or standard with min climb gradient of xxxft/nm to xxx ft.

A good example of this problem is San Diego... North Island to be exact. It's a pain in the dick to take a Merc in there for several reasons, not the least of which being climbout on account of Pt. Loma. It's damned near impossible to meet the climb gradient reqs out of there with anything resembling a reasonable fuel loadout. The only chance of getting out is through a diverse departure, or, if the wx is co-operating, a VCOA. Really, I'm pretty sure that if you are given a vector by ATC, you are expected to fly it.

 

[HAL Pilot]

HAL "trouble t" as we call it refers to the "T" on our approach plates that reminds us to check the front of the pub called "alternate takeoff minima" because that rwy either has nonsrd t/ o mins or obstacle dept procedures. That's where it describes civilian alternate t/o wx mins ( doesn't govern us) obstacle departure procedures, and required climb gradient if standard wx mins used. Im not familiar with different climbout based on losing an engine but our TOLD requires us to clear any obstacle or make any required obstacle clb gradient with one engine inop. If we can't get the required gradient on three engines we have to either drop weight or try another rwy

Im not sure how different our pubs are from yours but I imagine y'all have a similar section in your pubs?

Okay, ignore inappropriate response then....sorry.

 

[AJTranny]

No problem but would still like your inputs to the above questions. My understanding is if a dp says "clb to xxx ft prior to turning" that doesn't apply if given a hdg and alt from clnc or twr and I would disregard what was published and turn at 400agl. As for my second question if it states in the alternate takeoff min section that xxxft/nm is required for that rwy that min clb gradient does apply to any type of departure out of that rwy (even a vector) unless told otherwise.

Am I on the right track on this?

 

[torpedo0126]

No problem but would still like your inputs to the above questions. My understanding is if a dp says "clb to xxx ft prior to turning" that doesn't apply if given a hdg and alt from clnc or twr and I would disregard what was published and turn at 400agl.

I think thats exactly right. Basically, the way I understood it, was if ATC does not give any instructions in the clearance, no obstacle DP under the trouble T, and no SID was filed, you would execute a diverse departure--turning at 400' AGL as you mentioned. Same situation, except there is an ODP published in the trouble T, you would fly that. If you are assigned radar vectors, you would fly those.

Here is that full quote from above, followed by the definition of a Diverse Vector Area.

"ATC may assume responsibility for obstacle clearance by vectoring the aircraft prior to reaching the minimum vectoring altitude by using a Diverse Vector Area (DVA). The DVA has been assessed for departures which do not follow a specific ground track. ATC may also vector an aircraft off a previously assigned DP. In all cases, the 200 FPNM climb gradient is assumed and obstacle clearance is not provided by ATC until the controller begins to provide navigational guidance in the form of radar vectors"

Diverse Vector Area: In a radar environment, that area in which a prescribed departure route is not required as the only suitable route to avoid obstacles. The area in which random radar vectors below the MVA/MIA, established in accordance with the TERPS criteria for diverse departures, obstacles and terrain avoidance, may be issued to departing aircraft."