What do you do on an 8 hour preflight? Does that include flight planning and/or maintenance D&T?
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P3 Mishap article
- Thread starter S.O.B.
- Start date
What do you do on an 8 hour preflight? Does that include flight planning and/or maintenance D&T?
No shit???
What is your max "duty period" (from airline-speak) in the P-3 community for a peacetime evolution ... I understand "operational necessity" ... but com'on .... 16+ hour duty periods ??? And half of that on the ramp in pre-flight ... ???
I think I'd give it back to MAINT Control at about the 4 hour mark ... or is that not gonna' happen in the VP's of today ... ???
If you can't say ... O.K.
Going from one airplane to the next. Or waiting for either essential mission systems, or aircraft malfs to be fixed. Most squadron stan notes have a hard limit for Aircraft Commanders or Mission Commanders to follow and NOT go past a certain time frame (for example, 5 hours of preflight) without getting CO approval to keep pressing. When in theater, that usually gets thrown out the window.
Face it, we have an OLD plane, that can have a wide variety of maintenance issues that can keep it from flying. That, in and of itself, can cause crews to have very long preflights.
I would say that is the exception, not the rule (granted, your squadrons mileage may vary!)...
A4s, we are tied to an 18 hour day per 3710 and NATOPs. You break that, and you have to explain to the man why you did it. I have done it multiple times, and ALL for good reason. Maybe over a beer I will tell you why sometime, more than likely I will just make some shit up.
edit, breaking 18 is a very major exception, and not to be done lightly... ie OPERATIONAL CONCERNS, not home flying a DFW or training flight.
edit, breaking 18 is a very major exception, and not to be done lightly... ie OPERATIONAL CONCERNS, not home flying a DFW or training flight.
Pilot flight station/walk around preflight w/ 3 guys shouldn't take more than 20 minutes. FE's take quite a bit longer, (fuel/oil samples...wieght and balance paperwork), but they're out to the plane before anybody else, (they don't have to go to the tactical briefs, etc..)........
Tube rats, (NFOS, and AWs and IFTs) always have a hell of a time getting their gear running..dosen't always necessarily be 4.0...but sometime it does depending on the mission/qual. And that shit is very tempermental. I've personally sat on the airplane for hours on end while the maintainers tried to fix radar or the Acoustic processor for a Wing 10 mandated crew qual more than a few times.
Tube rats, (NFOS, and AWs and IFTs) always have a hell of a time getting their gear running..dosen't always necessarily be 4.0...but sometime it does depending on the mission/qual. And that shit is very tempermental. I've personally sat on the airplane for hours on end while the maintainers tried to fix radar or the Acoustic processor for a Wing 10 mandated crew qual more than a few times.
No shit???
What is your max "duty period" (from airline-speak) in the P-3 community for a peacetime evolution ... I understand "operational necessity" ... but com'on .... 16+ hour duty periods ??? And half of that on the ramp in pre-flight ... ???
I think I'd give it back to MAINT Control at about the 4 hour mark ... or is that not gonna' happen in the VP's of today ... ???
If you can't say ... O.K.
I think 3710 states that no crewmember should be schedualed for an evolution to put him in excess of 18 hours in a 24 hour period...but many times skeds knows that you will exceed this. I forget the loophole, but I think 3710 goes on to say that if 18 hour day is exceeded, than the crewmember shall have 24 hours off.
Only the first round...That's O.K. ... but in that event; you're buyin' ...
You know, I saw a sexy looking A4 at the hold short to runway 09 today. Then I figured even with all those damn drop tanks, and high drag count, it probably could only log a 1.0 hop... I log more time in the rack in the P3 than that!!! I quickly shook myself out of it... And as you know, I had a date with a certain seagull that needed to meet its maker.
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
When I was in HSL, I did not get jack for flight time unless deployed, or doing FCFs that actually flew (mostly main rotor track & balance).
48 months in the community, including the RAG. I was AVERAGING under 15 hours a month for my entire LAMPS career. And there were a few 60-90 hours months in there on cruise/workups, so my average was under 10 hours a month when not deployed. And I took ANY flight I could get my ass on. FCF, NVG, DLQ, you name it, I would do it.
In about 2-3 years, we will start seeing DET OICs with 7-800 hours in model, if that.
Guys used to make HAC with almost that, and leaving your JO tour with >1000 was common.
I had a bit bigger baseline of experience to work off of (and sometimes that was used to justify why LT X was flying when I have flown twice in a month, if that) but we are going to start seeing a lot more "human error" mishaps.
Because guys are not getting the hours as a JO to build the experience base to be able to get away with flying less as a DH.
Of course, this problem will be solved by "deliberate time critical ORM" so it will all be sunshine and roses.
48 months in the community, including the RAG. I was AVERAGING under 15 hours a month for my entire LAMPS career. And there were a few 60-90 hours months in there on cruise/workups, so my average was under 10 hours a month when not deployed. And I took ANY flight I could get my ass on. FCF, NVG, DLQ, you name it, I would do it.
In about 2-3 years, we will start seeing DET OICs with 7-800 hours in model, if that.
Guys used to make HAC with almost that, and leaving your JO tour with >1000 was common.
I had a bit bigger baseline of experience to work off of (and sometimes that was used to justify why LT X was flying when I have flown twice in a month, if that) but we are going to start seeing a lot more "human error" mishaps.
Because guys are not getting the hours as a JO to build the experience base to be able to get away with flying less as a DH.
Of course, this problem will be solved by "deliberate time critical ORM" so it will all be sunshine and roses.
Mumbles is exactly right. The 24 hr downtime was the reach-around. Then the cycle repeats. You know the drill...
I did it (18+ hr crew duty days, 2 or 3 plane swaps) plenty of times 8-10 years ago. The planes were fickle then. Trying to keep the crew focused and motivated was tough.
I don't know how you guys do it these days.
Edit: Other Orion bubbas and I often kid how our VT flights are over before we'd be halfway through a typical P-3 pre-flight...good times.
I did it (18+ hr crew duty days, 2 or 3 plane swaps) plenty of times 8-10 years ago. The planes were fickle then. Trying to keep the crew focused and motivated was tough.
I don't know how you guys do it these days.
Edit: Other Orion bubbas and I often kid how our VT flights are over before we'd be halfway through a typical P-3 pre-flight...good times.
Damn Skippy!
We would do it on home cycle to either do a simulated SLAM shot, get an ISAR qual, or get some on top time on a friendly boomer out of Bangor. Suffice it to say....morale sucked the big one.
Anyone else remember/have to work on the "Basic Aviation Skills" assessment CNAF (I think) threw out about this time last year? They asked each squadron to detail how they train and evaluate "basic" skills. ie does your squadron actually do instrument checks or just go up, shoot an approach and call it good? I haven't seen that tied into this mishap discussion yet, but with fewer flight hours basic flying skills do atrophy. I see it being increasingly difficult to sell the people who make money decisions on the need for pilots to actually fly airplanes. Simulators can't do everything.
I suppose on the plus side, the P-3 squadrons I'm most familiar with seemed to take the 10 hour/month requirement more seriously after this. But again, if you take off, fly 2 hours to your exercise, troublehsoot SASP for 2 hours, and fly 2 hours home without getting other training, I'm not sure that did much for proficiency.