P3 Mishap article

[Pugs]

I'd like to see CPRG and the safety center take a hard look at the multi-decade statistics they have on P-3 flight safety...to see if there is an uptick in pilot-error related safety of flight incidents or not.

It would be interesting but there's an interesting factor that would have to at least be included and that is changes in the training matrix over time and how that affects it. The Prowler community in my time simply removed "required" events from training if they were too OPTAR intensive or judged in the least bit risky, 200' AGL division low levels, DEFTAC, WASEX, Interwing TACEX competitions and lots of EW range events simply left the training matrix and sometimes came back and sometimes didn't but the Prowler Squadron I joined in 1988 flew a lot more dynamic flight regime events than the one I retired from in 2008 did. We also lost some jets doing it but I believe that we also had better aviation skills. It was a non-hacker (or very unlucky anyway) JO that didn't leave his first fleet squadron with 1000 hours in type and 300 traps.

 

[zippy]

Hard luck Squadron or just bad Karma, VP-1 has had more that it's share. :icon_smil
http://www.vpnavy.org/vp1_mishap_1980.html

Google P-3 Mishaps and you'll see a lot of squadrons that are still around today have had some unfortunate incidents in their past.

I remember hearing of guys in the old days leaving their first squadrons with well over 2000hrs. We currently have situations where Squadron COs barely have 2000hrs- That number is only going to get less as the younger year groups golden boys follow the cookie cutter career path that the Detailer (who says you're only guaranteed three flying tours- First, DH and Skipper) and their front office put them on.

I believe the term the Marine Corps uses is "MOS credibility"- Like it or not, with each passing year Department Heads and the front office members are returning to the squadrons with less of it.

This article brings to public light an issue that has existed in the community in recent history.

 

[hscs]

Aircraft is UP when the crew reads the ADB and walks to the plane. Then, either aircraft systems or mission systems may either force preflighting another aircraft, or waiting for maintenance to address the gripes.

For me, extraordinarily long preflights were the exception, not the rule.

After reading your response, I think your MO needs to be fired. His maintainers are not doing there job. Tell the PCs + maintainers that you are going to take them flying without preflighting and see what kind of aircraft you get.......

 

[Flugelman]

After reading your response, I think your MO needs to be fired. His maintainers are not doing there job. Tell the PCs + maintainers that you are going to take them flying without preflighting and see what kind of aircraft you get.......

As explained before, stuff goes bad DURING preflight a lot of the time. IIRC the P3-B had something like 86 separate systems (avionics/sensors/radar/displays/etc) alone (not to mention motors and stuff). Granted, not every system was needed for every flight but for a tactical go most were. No PC's as in VFA, HXX. Stuff happens, not all the time, but often enough to prolong preflights.

A lot of the "maintainers" were also flight crew in my day, so that threat just wouldn't work.

 

[webmaster]

EH, not the direction I was going in... damn you interweb

After reading your response, I think your MO needs to be fired. His maintainers are not doing there job. Tell the PCs + maintainers that you are going to take them flying without preflighting and see what kind of aircraft you get.......

Well, right now we as a community are getting squadron Maintenance Officers BACK, we went to centralized maintenance for awhile... But, the intent of my post wasn't to portray that image, and why I put a couple simple examples and the caveat that it isn't the norm (at least for my experiences in the 3 squadrons).

Also, shooting the MO, while depending on the individual in quesiton it MIGHT be entertaining, there other significant factors that affect us (parts, maintainers background ie spent 12 years working on F18s and is now coming to a P3 squadron, limited aircraft, training and operational commitments).

Example, I walk to the plane, and during preflight with the temperature change int he tube, I find my FDI has become all fogged over inside the flight instrument glass. There, one hour is already gone. We call maintenance and some motivated maintainers get out to our plane and call back in that yes the Pilot is right, and we need to replace it. Unfortunately, we have none on hand, and have to get the part. Preflight continues, and the part arrives an hour later. My maintainers kick ass putting it in, only to find when it is installed that this one starts fogging up also. We radio back, and find out there aren't any more in supply, but there is a bird that it can be cann'd form. The maintainers hot foot it over there, and come back and fix our bird, and we are ready to go. At hour 5, or 2 hours past our scheduled take off. (Note: recently there were some issues with FDI in the supply chain that were not getting properly purged of humidity prior to getting released for use.)

I personally am not one on the band wagon to point fingers at Maintenance or the maintainers. I know that isn't what you were getting at. But, for me, these guys and gals do the impossible to keep my warpig flying, while we as an organization continue to throw curve balls at them.

I have over 2100 hours in the P3 and I know it is a safe plane to fly. Unfortunately as this thread highlights, we are continuing to go to great extremes to "get the X" or make our operational commitments. Aircraft and Mission Commanders need to be prepared to make the call and cancel any preflights that drag on too long.

 

[webmaster]

A lot of the "maintainers" were also flight crew in my day, so that threat just wouldn't work.

Right on the money, and a good point. Our Flight Engineers are the first to the plane, and they along with IFTs fill both aircrew and maintainer positions.

 

[HAL Pilot]

I remember hearing of guys in the old days leaving their first squadrons with well over 2000hrs.

As a NFO, I had 1871 hours in the P-3 when I checked out of my first squadron in January 1989. Pilots typically had at least 30% more. I believe you had to have 1000 hours to make PPC and they typically left the squadron with over 1000 hours of A time. IPs typically left with 1500 hours A time.

 

[picklesuit]

Here is a question for the guys out there in the VP-land...after you get out of Dirty Thirty how often do you do basic airwork type sims... i.e. OCF, Spin/Stall recovery, Windshear escape...we can't actually do these in the plane like we did in the VT-s...I know currency was one of the issues brought up with the VP-1 mishap...how is that being addressed now?

 

[Mumbles]

I don't think I can ever recall OCF/ spin recovery ever being discussed in a trainer session. Maybe that's changed since the mishap.

 

[webmaster]

Here is a question for the guys out there in the VP-land...after you get out of Dirty Thirty how often do you do basic airwork type sims... i.e. OCF, Spin/Stall recovery, Windshear escape...we can't actually do these in the plane like we did in the VT-s...I know currency was one of the issues brought up with the VP-1 mishap...how is that being addressed now?

As upgrading pilots you should be exposed to a stall buffet demo, since getting slow while low over a buoy pattern is a danger we face due to inattentiveness (sp?)... There have been periodic HAZREPs over the years with crews that have recovered with minimal altitude.

Windshear is always a good one for the sim, and can be a challenging scenario to try and recover from.

Spin/stall recovery... hmm, as the SIR highlighted, alot has to go wrong to get there.

 

[picklesuit]

As upgrading pilots you should be exposed to a stall buffet demo, since getting slow while low over a buoy pattern is a danger we face due to inattentiveness (sp?)... There have been periodic HAZREPs over the years with crews that have recovered with minimal altitude.

Windshear is always a good one for the sim, and can be a challenging scenario to try and recover from.

Spin/stall recovery... hmm, as the SIR highlighted, alot has to go wrong to get there.

Maybe I hould have thrown in Vmc...we had a pretty good demo by our IP on Sim 2...showed us recovering by dropping nose vs. adding power vs. a little of both...so we don't get much of that past -30?

 

[LivinMyDream]

In response to a few questions asked throughout the thread thusfar:

I fly EP-3's, and know plenty of pilots who are leaving the squadron with 1500+ hours for a 36 month tour. On DET I logged 98 hours and 96 hours pilot time in two consecutive months. Hours aren't hard to come by on the road.

Back home, I have flown an average of 15-20 hours a month. This includes pilot trainers as well as Repo's. This is all pilot time, not Special Crew Time (Screw Time).

As for OCF procedures, spin recovery, windshear, etc: I've found that many instructors are taking OCF and spin recovery very seriously as a result of previous mishaps up here in Whidbey. We talk about them during briefs/boards, though they are difficult to practice while in the plane for obvious reasons. Windshear is briefed and practiced regularly while in the SIM. Hell, whenever landing in/around/near a thunderstorm it is briefed as a part of your approach brief.

While hours at home are tougher to come by from a maintenance standpoint, as an upgrader I haven't found it too tough to remain current. We only have 2 to 3 months at home before we go back on the road, so we are never far from DET and workups and usually remain pretty current.

Last, my preflights on DET were usually 1.5 to 2 hours; very few exceptions. Aircraft were up and we flew a lot. Those were EP's, though. At home, with CMO, they average 3-4 hours. I have never been issued a down aircraft, though it has gone down due to gripes we've found on deck while pre-flighting.

 

[smittyrunr]

I left my VP fleet squadron in October with just over 1000 hours P-3 pilot time- I was unusual- most left with less. (That's 2 full deployments, 1.5 of them in the desert, a 3 and a 6 week surge, and about 3 months of IP in the squadron)

We were told the sims do not have the logarithims to be able to accurately reflect spin and OCF. (Just wasn't something thhought necessary) Several of us tried to put the sim in the position the VP-1 plane was in, and mostly did not succeed in getting the same result. Good VMC air demo, though. The level DE sims do, though have some neat windshear functions.

It seems (I hope?) CPRG and Safety enter are looking at the last 2 Class A's both from a pilot skills point of view and from a CRM standpoint. Now here in the VTs, yeah, they're putting a lot of emphasis on how we teach CRM.

I think Sky-Pig is right... one of the answers seems to come back to fewer squadrons.

As far as the maintenance issues, the maintainers in general busted their butts to work on the preflight gripes and get us out. Especially on tactical flights- it's the same as an old home computer- somedays it starts right up, you turn it off, start it the next time and it doesn't want to boot up, or you get the blue screen of death... DFWs and PTFs were the easy ones for the most part- when the engine doesn't work, MOST of the time it's easier to find out what's wrong and fix the broken part. Chasing electrons- ugh.

 

[HAL Pilot]

1974 P-3 Spin

Saw this link on another site where they were discussing this incident....

1974 P-3 spin: http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/media/approach/issues/novdec05/pdf/We_Just_Spun.pdf

 

[webmaster]

HAL, awesome article find, a very good read. I remember hearing about the second portion of the article, but not the first.

One of the main points in any kind of aircraft instruction is reiteration of a basic aerodynamic principle—maintain airspeed. THE INSTRUCTOR PILOT MUST NOT RELAX HIS GUARD FOR A SECOND.

Amen!

You know, it is always said that the WARNINGs or changes we see in our instructions or NATOPs are the result of previous blood shed. I find it eerie to think of doing a ditching drill with an motor shut down. That coupled with we don't let the student fly it away after the drill, like they mentioned in the article. Nor do we conduct VMCair demos outside of the SIM.