• Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?

    Go here:

    Edit Account Details and Profile

No-notice checkride?

Ever heard of a no-notice check ride?


  • Total voters
    85

hokieav8r

~Bring the Wood!~
None
I can weigh in on this...The Army promotes this concept, probably based on the same program that the FAA uses in respects to "no notice" checkrides. The Army has rules and regulations that permit and order Standardization and Instructor Pilots to conduct at least one "No Notice" oral or written examination annually or semi annually(I can't remember which) for each aviator. Some of the instructors take this as a literal duty to go and examine an aviator in every performance task in the training manual. DA Evaluation and Standards(DES) travel from unit to unit, some while in combat, and evaluate in this manner, although you obviously know they are coming, but the units instructors will usually reserve the knowledge of who is receiving checkrides until just a day prior to receiving them. Usually Joe New PC guy will be evaluated. These evaluations are used in many ways, to motivate, to get aviators to adjust their attitude, get on the right track, to correct a negative action or bad habit. I've seen them in all the attack units I've been in. An example of a positve motivator is that a pilot has worked very hard in the unit and is a squared away aviator, he is given a flight with an instructor listed as a familiarization flight, and at the end, if successful, is informed that the flight was a "no notice" Pilot in Command evaluation and that he is now a PC. If he fails, then it was recognized as a familiarization flight and no negative entries are put in his flight records. An example to the negative side, if a pilot continuously ignores written publications and checklists, then he gets the hose. When he shows up to work he is taken to the table and instructed to get all his pubs and flight gear, goes through a full oral evaluation, full flight evaluation, and usually at the end of the flight, unless he is totally squared away, he is written up as Readiness Level 3, and recommended for retraining and further evaluation once training is completed.
 

picklesuit

Dirty Hinge
pilot
Contributor
An example to the negative side, if a pilot continuously ignores written publications and checklists, then he gets the hose. When he shows up to work he is taken to the table and instructed to get all his pubs and flight gear, goes through a full oral evaluation, full flight evaluation, and usually at the end of the flight, unless he is totally squared away, he is written up as Readiness Level 3, and recommended for retraining and further evaluation once training is completed.


"It recites the NATOPS or it gets the hose again..."
 

HeloBubba

SH-2F AW
Contributor
An example to the negative side, if a pilot continuously ignores written publications and checklists, then he gets the hose. When he shows up to work he is taken to the table and instructed to get all his pubs and flight gear, goes through a full oral evaluation, full flight evaluation, and usually at the end of the flight, unless he is totally squared away, he is written up as Readiness Level 3, and recommended for retraining and further evaluation once training is completed.

All the way back to RL3? Wow, do not pass Go, do not collect $200...
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
When he shows up to work he is taken to the table and instructed to get all his pubs and flight gear, goes through a full oral evaluation, full flight evaluation, and usually at the end of the flight, unless he is totally squared away, he is written up as Readiness Level 3, and recommended for retraining and further evaluation once training is completed.
I can haz Army speak?? I'm assuming that's bad, but what are Readiness Levels?
 

robav8r

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
An example of a positve motivator is that a pilot has worked very hard in the unit and is a squared away aviator, he is given a flight with an instructor listed as a familiarization flight, and at the end, if successful, is informed that the flight was a "no notice" Pilot in Command evaluation and that he is now a PC. If he fails, then it was recognized as a familiarization flight and no negative entries are put in his flight records.

If this is SOP in the Army and it actually works as you described, then awesome. However, I see a different scenario in the Navy . . .

"An example of a positve motivator is that the 2P/3P (or NAV/COMM) who has worked very hard in the squadron and is a squared away aviator, is given a "no-notice" flight with an instructor listed as a familiarization flight, and, at the end, if unsuccessful, he is informed that he failed the flight and must now completely re-do his PQS. This, in turn, will bring the gauntlet of intimidation, embarrasment, and outright fear into the wardroom and force the hords of unqualified pilots and FO's to study harder, work longer and bleed more."

;)
 

Rubiks06

Registered User
pilot
Im with MB on this one. If its stuff you should know anyway then im all for them. Now if your getting int he cockpit with me and asking me how many blades the free power turbine has.......or what the tensile strength on the emergency window release sheer wire, i think its a little beyond the scope of safe for flight.
 

HuggyU2

Well-Known Member
None
Yes, we do no-notice checkrides in the USAF. Mainly on new guys, after they've been around 9-12 months; after an upgrade to IP; after some "bad" event. As Vick says, yes, there are a percentage of checkrides that we like to ensure are no-notice.
As a new O-2, I got my first no notice as a low level checkride. It was more "min notice", as I was notified the afternoon of the day prior that I'd be flying a low level the next day, so "get planning". No real time to study up, but there was no need to.
In my experiences, USAF no notices aren't so much about the ground eval portion: they are more focused on the flight and the decision making. However, I don't know if that's true in the bomber and fighter world.

Vick: expect your no-notice after you get back from your deployment. :D
 

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I agree that no-notice checkrides would be a good idea, if we did them the same way the Army does them. That is to say, focus on safe-to-fly and mission stuff, not some of the idiotic nitnoid system gotcha stump-the-chump games that they sometimes devolve into.

However comma here's the problem. Failing a NATOPS check is a big deal because you're supposed to have plenty of notice that it's coming, time to study, etc. I could pretty easily see that point being missed in a no-notice regime.

Maybe not a full NATOPS shebang, but I like the idea of no-notice EP, preflight and limits exams. The stuff that everybody's supposed to know cold every time you go flying and can kill you if you don't. A bunch of questions about pressures in tanks that don't even have gauges, or CIC floodlight bulb candlepower...not so much. E-2s have enough alpha-nerd bullshit without encouraging it.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Maybe not a full NATOPS shebang, but I like the idea of no-notice EP, preflight and limits exams. The stuff that everybody's supposed to know cold every time you go flying and can kill you if you don't. A bunch of questions about pressures in tanks that don't even have gauges, or CIC floodlight bulb candlepower...not so much. E-2s have enough alpha-nerd bullshit without encouraging it.

Pretty standard really, in the Prowler community.
 

EODDave

The pastures are greener!
pilot
Super Moderator
I say keep the no notice check ride as far away from NavAir as you can. With all the great deals our current leaders are giving us, all we need is another reason to get shit on. The Navy would never let it be a "learning experience". It would be a way to document your ass out of a flying job. I've seen our Airwing by direction from above implement a grade sheet stlye form for every flight. Its no shit just like a grade sheet from primary that the senior person in the flight fills out. Then the training O's and DH's get together and talk about it during MC boards. Funny thing is I've seen 0-4's and above fuck things away and it never gets documneted but if its a JO, stand the fuck by. There is enough bullshit in tacair with the SWFT program and all the BS that goes along with the new age patch wearers. We dont need anymore BS introduced in todays version of Naval Aviation.

Just my 3 cents.
 

Harrier Dude

Living the dream
There is enough bullshit in tacair with the [MAWTS-1 and T&R Nazis] program and all the BS that goes along with the new age patch wearers. We dont need anymore BS introduced in todays version of Naval Aviation.

Just my 3 cents.

Amen. Translated in Marine-speak.
Yut, Yut.
 

squeeze

Retired Harrier Dude
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
While I kinda like the idea conceptually and think that every flight should be treated as a checkride anyhow, I have absolutely no confidence in the Navy/Marine Corps to not utterly fuck it away in execution like Dave alluded to.

So, while I voted "great idea," I'll caveat that with the fact that the N/MC doesn't function on "great ideas." Typically, if you take the sane, smart answer and do the complete opposite, you're far closer to the company line.
 

HackerF15E

Retired Strike Pig Driver
None
I had a no-notice checkride as a T-38 IP a few years ago. I found out probably an hour or two prior to the brief -- I looked at the schedule and saw that one of the higher headquarters Stan/Eval guys who had been in town flying with us to keep his own currencies was scheduled in my back seat.

It was not a big deal -- it was a student sortie, so still I had to instruct and lead my wingman just like I would have on any other day.

It turned out fine, but I hope I'll never have to do it again!
 

vick

Esoteric single-engine jet specialist
pilot
None
The couple I've seen guys go through looked pretty benign, but it certainly sounds like it has the potential to be unpleasant - and in the wrong hands I'm sure it would amount to unmitigated asspain. There's always the tactical med down/DNIF...
 
Top