WWII history and tactics

[Pags]

And a good thing it was. BBs were made obsolete on 12/08/1941 (except for shore bombardment). The classic showdown of massive battle wagons squaring off was nostalgic Naval thinking (crossing the tee and all that).

The few BB vs BB engagements of the war are fascinating to me.

Bismarck fires on HMS Hood

USS Washington during the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal.

 

[Randy Daytona]

Iowa class BBs vs Yamato BBs are one of the big "what ifs" of the Pacific War. When Yamato sorties to Oki for Ten Go the US fleet considered sending their BBs out to attack Yamato but this plan was overruled in favor of aircraft.

Tough call. The Yamato class had more armor and bigger guns but the Iowas were faster and better fire control. Too bad the Montana class was never built.

Here are some good photos. Notice the last shell - a sabot 11" round from the standard 16" shell.
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_16-50_mk7_pics.htm

 

[jmcquate]

The few BB vs BB engagements of the war are fascinating to me.

Bismarck fires on HMS Hood

USS Washington during the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal.

As do I, but when the RN hunted the Bismark after she sunk the Hood they made sure the Ark Royal was involved and it was the Stringbags off of the Ark Royal that sealed the Bismark's fate. As for the USS Washington, well that was out of necessity as USS Enterprise was the only carrier available at the time.

 

[Pags]

Tough call. The Yamato class had more armor and bigger guns but the Iowas were faster and better fire control. Too bad the Montana class was never built.

Here are some good photos. Notice the last shell - a sabot 11" round from the standard 16" shell.
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_16-50_mk7_pics.htm

I tend to think fire control would have ruled the day. When properly used, US radar controlled gunnery took the IJN to task.

 

[Flash]

Iowa class BBs vs Yamato BBs are one of the big "what ifs" of the Pacific War. When Yamato sorties to Oki for Ten Go the US fleet considered sending their BBs out to attack Yamato but this plan was overruled in favor of aircraft.

I just read an account of the sinking and apparently when the Yamato was first sighted I believe it was Admiral Spruance ordered his battleships to sail north but Admiral Mitscher ordered airstrikes that beat the battleships there.

And a good thing it was. BBs were made obsolete on 12/08/1941 (except for shore bombardment). The classic showdown of massive battle wagons squaring off was nostalgic Naval thinking (crossing the tee and all that).

Not quite, there were several 'all-gun' battleship actions in the Pacific during WWII, the Second Naval Battle of Guadacanal and the the Battle of Surigao Strait. In the Second Naval Battle of Guadalcanal the USS Washington turned the Japanese battleship Kirishima into a wreck, this was just two days after a force of US cruisers and destroyers had critically damaged the Japanese battleship Hiei at great loss to themselves that was later sunk by US aircraft.

In the Battle of of Surigao Strait a force of 6 US battleships, 5 of them Pearl Harbor survivors, destroyed a force with 2 Japanese battleships with the help of PT boats and some destroyers after 'crossing the T'.

So an outmoded way of warfare of sea? Yup, but it did happen a few times and fortunately we came out on top both times. A decent record given our mixed record at surface actions during the war.

 

[Flash]

Another one that fascinates me is the Battle of the North Cape, where the HMS Duke of York with some cruisers and destroyers sank the German battlecruiser Scharnhorst.

 

[Randy Daytona]

And a good thing it was. BBs were made obsolete on 12/08/1941 (except for shore bombardment). The classic showdown of massive battle wagons squaring off was nostalgic Naval thinking (crossing the tee and all that).

Didn't Reagan reactivate the Iowas in response to the Soviet Union's Kirov class battlecruiser?

 

[Pags]

I just read an account of the sinking and apparently when the Yamato was first sighted I believe it was Admiral Spruance ordered his battleships to sail north but Admiral Mitscher ordered airstrikes that beat the battleships there.



Not quite, there were several 'all-gun' battleship actions in the Pacific during WWII, the Second Naval Battle of Guadacanal and the the Battle of Surigao Strait. In the Second Naval Battle of Guadalcanal the USS Washington turned the Japanese battleship Kirishima into a wreck, this was just two days after a force of US cruisers and destroyers had critically damaged the Japanese battleship Hiei at great loss to themselves that was later sunk by US aircraft.

In the Battle of of Surigao Strait a force of 6 US battleships, 5 of them Pearl Harbor survivors, destroyed a force with 2 Japanese battleships with the help of PT boats and some destroyers after 'crossing the T'.

So an outmoded way of warfare of sea? Yup, but it did happen a few times and fortunately we came out on top both times. A decent record given our mixed record at surface actions during the war.

Worthy of discussion are the few times when BBs where able to close with CVs. HMS Glorious vs Scharnhorst and Gneisenau ended in a loss of the CV. During the Battle of Samar the IJN's Center Force which included Yamato, after being battered by carrier aircraft and losing Musashi, attacked the CVEs, DDs, and DDEs of Taffy 3. By pluck and luck Taffy 3 was able to escape disaster at the hands of the Center Force only to set upon an hour later by the first Kamikazes.

 

[jmcquate]

Didn't Reagan reactivate the Iowas in response to the Soviet Union's Kirov class battlecruiser?

The Iowa's were reactivated 3 times after WWII. They fired some of the first cruise missiles in Desert Storm.

 

[Flash]

Didn't Reagan reactivate the Iowas in response to the Soviet Union's Kirov class battlecruiser?

Sort of, a lack of naval gunfire support as we'll with the retirement of the the last gun cruisers after Vietnam was also a big factor. Unfortunately while relatively well kept after so long in and out of service they were apparently still had some serious material deficiencies being over 50 years old. A guy in my reserve unit served on the New Jersey in the late 80's and said while it was a blast to serve on, literally, she wasn't in the greatest of shape and he said it was time for them all to be retired for good. This from a guy who can't stop talking about awesome they were.

 

[Uncle Fester]

Iowa class BBs vs Yamato BBs are one of the big "what ifs" of the Pacific War. When Yamato sorties to Oki for Ten Go the US fleet considered sending their BBs out to attack Yamato but this plan was overruled in favor of aircraft.

Yeah, that was another interesting story. There were a lot of guys wanting to let the surface engagement happen. Halsey launched the airstrikes anyway.

The BBs weren't obsolete after 1941 - they were in service off and on until the '90s, after all - they were just obsolete for their intended mission. After WWII there weren't any adversaries with big surface fleets to cross the T with anyway.

 

[nittany03]

In the Battle of of Surigao Strait a force of 6 US battleships, 5 of them Pearl Harbor survivors, destroyed a force with 2 Japanese battleships with the help of PT boats and some destroyers after 'crossing the T'.

During the Battle of Samar the IJN's Center Force which included Yamato, after being battered by carrier aircraft and losing Musashi, attacked the CVEs, DDs, and DDEs of Taffy 3. By pluck and luck Taffy 3 was able to escape disaster at the hands of the Center Force only to set upon an hour later by the first Kamikazes.

WHERE IS RPT WHERE IS TASK FORCE THIRTY FOUR RR THE WORLD WONDERS.

 

[Pags]

WHERE IS RPT WHERE IS TASK FORCE THIRTY FOUR RR THE WORLD WONDERS.

TF 34 is another great "what if?" If TF 34 had been left to guard San Bernardino Straight it would have resulted in TF 34 engaging Kurita's Center Force as they exited the straight. 4 US BBs vs 4 IJN BBs. Granted, the TF 34 would have been supported by 2 CV TGs, but if the encounter had happened at night it may have very well resulted in Kurita slugging it out against Lee. If TF 34 had been allowed to continue after the northern force, it may seen the northern force fall under the guns of TF 34 and it would have been HMS Glorious vs Scharnhorst and Genisenau writ large. Instead, TF 34 spent a lot of time turning dinosaurs into noise because Halsey was trying his damndest to let the Japanese win at Leyte Gulf.

 

[Owen]

Perhaps a bit off topic, but germane none the less..............



http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/03/intl_world/paul-allen-japanese-battleship-musashi/

 

[brownshoe]

Max Hastings, good author and historian. You might want read his book "Retribution".