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Women in Naval Aviation?
- Thread starter SRoque
- Start date
SRoque
Registered User
I was once told: Life comes down to two things - a good decision and a bad decision. I don't doubt both men and women, wherever they are and work, have made their share of mistakes (some more than others at times) and a lot of times those people who learn from them fast and make more good decisions than bad ones are the ones who end up having a lot less problems. A lot of it depends on a person's character (and there are people out there who unfortunately lack that).
You're not an "old mysoginistic dinosaur." Many of the issues you brought up and which others have expanded upon are quite relevant and I have thought them over. The reason I brought up gender was because I've heard conflicting things and I thought it better to get answers from people who are there now than relying on answers from people who were there, let's say twenty or thirty years ago. And you're certainly right - professionalism is key in any working environment (having held a job since I was 16 I learned that the hard way while young, but learned it nonetheless). But this brings me to another question altogether:
I can imagine a lot of you make some great friendships while on the job, and maybe a few of you have even met your spouses (one of the retired officers I spoke to met his wife in the Navy - she had been working as a nurse).
How do you people manage to seperate your working lives from your personal lives when you're working and living together at such close quarters for such long periods of time? How hard is it to maintain professionalism when you're out on a tour of duty?
You're not an "old mysoginistic dinosaur." Many of the issues you brought up and which others have expanded upon are quite relevant and I have thought them over. The reason I brought up gender was because I've heard conflicting things and I thought it better to get answers from people who are there now than relying on answers from people who were there, let's say twenty or thirty years ago. And you're certainly right - professionalism is key in any working environment (having held a job since I was 16 I learned that the hard way while young, but learned it nonetheless). But this brings me to another question altogether:
I can imagine a lot of you make some great friendships while on the job, and maybe a few of you have even met your spouses (one of the retired officers I spoke to met his wife in the Navy - she had been working as a nurse).
How do you people manage to seperate your working lives from your personal lives when you're working and living together at such close quarters for such long periods of time? How hard is it to maintain professionalism when you're out on a tour of duty?
We have beat this subject to death in the past ... but the original poster is a new person and may not have "read up" on the fits and starts previously posted herein. Having said that .... If the objective is to achieve equality in real terms, vice promoting a dubious social agenda, then why not let women:
Have their own ships?
Have their own squadrons?
Have their own infantry battalions?
There would be no problems with sexual harassment, gender-based physical differences, old traditional prejudices, deployment-related pregnancies, .... etc., etc., on and on, ad infinitum, ad nauseum. The women's units can compete on real terms in the real world. No more "second-class sailors".
Were this improbable event to take place, women could compete for promotions and have their weight felt in operational evolutions with the men on a truly "equal" footing. That is what is desired, right? No one wants any more Kara Hultgreen situations to develop in Naval Aviation, I am sure. If my performance had mirrored Hultgren's, I would never have received my Wings, let alone be put in the position of CQ in an F-14.
I worked on BRAC for the past 11 years and had the oportunity to commune, first-hand with:
The Harpies of Revenge of Tailhook '91, namely:
.....then Rep. Patricia Shroeder ( quote: "Women have been an island in the military, getting little support from the inside or the outside." ---ed: no agenda there, huh? )
.....current Senator Patty Murray (quote: re:Osama Bin Laden "... (he has) ... been out in these countries for decades, building schools, building roads, building infrastructure, building day care facilities, building health care facilities, and the people are extremely grateful. We haven't done that." ---ed: her comments --- amazing, just stunningly amazing ..... I escorted Senator Murray around NAS Whidbey for several hours during her first look-see to the area and I can state with certainty that she does NOT like the military nor military men.)
These two women are/were two of the major proponents of integrating women (post Tailhook '91) into traditionally male units and positions. They are both, without exaggeration, the biggest b!tches I have ever come across .....
Women were coming into Naval Aviation when I was still on active duty. Overall, I came to the studied conclusion that women have caused more problems than they have solved, primarily because of integration of women (and sex and attitudes and prejudices) into "men's" units. It was a high-visibility program for SecNav at the time: the physical achievement standards were different for males and females and ALL of the women students' instructors were "hand-picked": they were all "face-men", "company men", "Santa Clauses", etc. --- and instructors who were considered "neandrethals" or "screamers" need not apply.
I have trained many women in commercial aviation and flown with several both domestic and internationally. Like the men, some are great, some are lousy, most are average --- they are those under the "big" part of the bell-shaped curve. I have professional respect for those who do their job and carry their share of the burden. I have little respect for those who do not --- be they female or male pilots or flight attendants.
Do your job, and don't ask for "preferences" based on ANYTHING.
EQUALITY = Equal opportunity and equal responsibility. That is what we are talking about, right?
Have their own ships?
Have their own squadrons?
Have their own infantry battalions?
There would be no problems with sexual harassment, gender-based physical differences, old traditional prejudices, deployment-related pregnancies, .... etc., etc., on and on, ad infinitum, ad nauseum. The women's units can compete on real terms in the real world. No more "second-class sailors".
Were this improbable event to take place, women could compete for promotions and have their weight felt in operational evolutions with the men on a truly "equal" footing. That is what is desired, right? No one wants any more Kara Hultgreen situations to develop in Naval Aviation, I am sure. If my performance had mirrored Hultgren's, I would never have received my Wings, let alone be put in the position of CQ in an F-14.
I worked on BRAC for the past 11 years and had the oportunity to commune, first-hand with:
The Harpies of Revenge of Tailhook '91, namely:
.....then Rep. Patricia Shroeder ( quote: "Women have been an island in the military, getting little support from the inside or the outside." ---ed: no agenda there, huh? )
.....current Senator Patty Murray (quote: re:Osama Bin Laden "... (he has) ... been out in these countries for decades, building schools, building roads, building infrastructure, building day care facilities, building health care facilities, and the people are extremely grateful. We haven't done that." ---ed: her comments --- amazing, just stunningly amazing ..... I escorted Senator Murray around NAS Whidbey for several hours during her first look-see to the area and I can state with certainty that she does NOT like the military nor military men.)
These two women are/were two of the major proponents of integrating women (post Tailhook '91) into traditionally male units and positions. They are both, without exaggeration, the biggest b!tches I have ever come across .....
Women were coming into Naval Aviation when I was still on active duty. Overall, I came to the studied conclusion that women have caused more problems than they have solved, primarily because of integration of women (and sex and attitudes and prejudices) into "men's" units. It was a high-visibility program for SecNav at the time: the physical achievement standards were different for males and females and ALL of the women students' instructors were "hand-picked": they were all "face-men", "company men", "Santa Clauses", etc. --- and instructors who were considered "neandrethals" or "screamers" need not apply.
I have trained many women in commercial aviation and flown with several both domestic and internationally. Like the men, some are great, some are lousy, most are average --- they are those under the "big" part of the bell-shaped curve. I have professional respect for those who do their job and carry their share of the burden. I have little respect for those who do not --- be they female or male pilots or flight attendants.
Do your job, and don't ask for "preferences" based on ANYTHING.
EQUALITY = Equal opportunity and equal responsibility. That is what we are talking about, right?
Only having talked to people who were around when they first started integrating women into Naval Aviation and not having been there myself, I think what makes things easier now is that the guys you go through flight school with are the same guys you go through OCS/USNA/ROTC training with. They aren't (or shouldn't be) surprised to be working with women because they've been doing it all along and so have plenty of people before them. Sure some of them have had bad experiences in the past, but most of the guys I've been lucky enough to work with so far are intially inclined to think you are more or less like them and treat you accordingly unless you do something to change that. I never felt that I got any special treatment (good or bad) in training- I don't think my flights were any easier or harder and when I struggled I got the same help the guys did (or didn't).
As far as maintaining professionalism, without much experience in the 'real world' (outside of the Navy), I don't know how different it is. There can be temptation to sway from what's right in any situation (shots of tequila help) but as long as you're committed to what you're doing it shouldn't be too hard. I met my husband in the Navy- during the short time we were working together and dating we kept it professional at work and were free to be ourselves on our own time. Hasn't really been an issue since- in general the Navy will not station you in the same squadron or on the same ship, so we avoid having to work together in a professional environment on a daily basis. Am I making any sense?
As far as maintaining professionalism, without much experience in the 'real world' (outside of the Navy), I don't know how different it is. There can be temptation to sway from what's right in any situation (shots of tequila help) but as long as you're committed to what you're doing it shouldn't be too hard. I met my husband in the Navy- during the short time we were working together and dating we kept it professional at work and were free to be ourselves on our own time. Hasn't really been an issue since- in general the Navy will not station you in the same squadron or on the same ship, so we avoid having to work together in a professional environment on a daily basis. Am I making any sense?
Yes, you are ... good points .... well said.smittyrunr said:
But Smittyrunr,
You don't remember the time a certain O-4 asked you at a Christmas party "hi there, I'm xxxx, and you are?" At which point you replied "yes sir, it's me, xxxx" ???!?
Except for the Hawaiians and the Scots, men don't wear skirts in the civilian world. I apologize for that digress... I guess it's just a warning for the guys to realize who you're working with.
*In fairness, it wasn't a skirt. Just a dress with the hair down.
You don't remember the time a certain O-4 asked you at a Christmas party "hi there, I'm xxxx, and you are?" At which point you replied "yes sir, it's me, xxxx" ???!?
Except for the Hawaiians and the Scots, men don't wear skirts in the civilian world. I apologize for that digress... I guess it's just a warning for the guys to realize who you're working with.
*In fairness, it wasn't a skirt. Just a dress with the hair down.
I think the biggest obstacle for women who want to pursue aviation, or any military specialty, as a long term career, is that one day, they may want to have children. For most men, the best time to start a family, is usually their shore tour - they're home more, not deployed, etc. Although women are home more during these tours,, we are the ones who are getting pregnant and carrying the baby. Which immensely affects your flying (check the NATOPS - no waivers for ejection seats, pilots are supposed to be waived to SG2 (this is a big issue for instructors in the TRACOMs and especially the FRS's, where they're supposedly grooming the future COs and XOs), no ship board ops, no flying during last trimester). As for after having the kiddo, ever try putting on a harness and SV2 while you're lactating? For non-flyers, the issues are still there - childcare (you get 42 days off after delivering, then it's back to work. Good luck finding affordable, reliable childcare for a 6 week old), deployability (if you're dual military or a single mom, you'll need a care plan that truly works), etc. I've found many awesome women officers who've gotten out as senior O3s or O4s because it's hard to be a mom, and REALLY hard to be a mom and a warrior.
The skipper of one of the HTs was pregnant a couple years ago during her command tour. It raised a little bit of a fuss, but she flew for as long as she could, and had (I think) a healthy baby. I think she's retired now.
Other than that, it's like being a woman in any other male dominated profession - engineering, medicine, law, law enforcement, etc. Work hard, do a good job and don't be an @$$hole. If you play the drama queen (or whatever), you'll get the screenbill and props (or whatever) that go along with the role.
PM me if you have specific Qs.
The skipper of one of the HTs was pregnant a couple years ago during her command tour. It raised a little bit of a fuss, but she flew for as long as she could, and had (I think) a healthy baby. I think she's retired now.
Other than that, it's like being a woman in any other male dominated profession - engineering, medicine, law, law enforcement, etc. Work hard, do a good job and don't be an @$$hole. If you play the drama queen (or whatever), you'll get the screenbill and props (or whatever) that go along with the role.
PM me if you have specific Qs.
kmac said:
HAHAHA... that was the laugh I needed when I went on duty at 0300 this morning, thanks kmac
What was funniest about that was before he 'introduced' himself to me, he was looking at you all standing next to me like "Who's the goon who doesn't have the manners to introduce his date?" and it was a skirt
SRoque
Registered User
Reading this thread is seriously encouraging (and thanks smittyrunr & Rugger 
your insights are much appreciated). Man or woman, naval aviation sounds like a lot of hard work, but you people, on top of making the experience sound rewarding, seem like an amazing bunch to work under. I'm almost tempted to go sign the OCS papers tomorrow (my dad would get a kick out of that - I won't tell him and then forward him an email the night before I leave noting that I'll be in Pensacola and won't be able to talk to him for 13 weeks...). I'll do as much research as I can (this forum, by far, has been one of the best sources) - I am quite encouraged!
If I have any more questions I'll either PM one of you or post it on the board.
Thanks Everyone - it's good hearing from you all (I'll most likely be back posting questions on the OCS threads sometime near the end of this year).
Stella
P.S. The American University Women's Rugby team (which I play for) will be playing Navy this fall - we will undoubtedly get our asses kicked... again. I love my ladies dearly, but maybe, one day, I'll play for the winning team.
P.P.S. all Air Force jokes found on this forum will be dully forwarded to the guy I'm dating... who doesn't fly anything.
your insights are much appreciated). Man or woman, naval aviation sounds like a lot of hard work, but you people, on top of making the experience sound rewarding, seem like an amazing bunch to work under. I'm almost tempted to go sign the OCS papers tomorrow (my dad would get a kick out of that - I won't tell him and then forward him an email the night before I leave noting that I'll be in Pensacola and won't be able to talk to him for 13 weeks...). I'll do as much research as I can (this forum, by far, has been one of the best sources) - I am quite encouraged!If I have any more questions I'll either PM one of you or post it on the board.
Thanks Everyone - it's good hearing from you all (I'll most likely be back posting questions on the OCS threads sometime near the end of this year).
Stella
P.S. The American University Women's Rugby team (which I play for) will be playing Navy this fall - we will undoubtedly get our asses kicked... again. I love my ladies dearly, but maybe, one day, I'll play for the winning team.
P.P.S. all Air Force jokes found on this forum will be dully forwarded to the guy I'm dating... who doesn't fly anything.
....and then it'll be over to the threads on Primary and Advanced, etc.. etc. Before you know it, you'll be an old timer yourself and people will be asking YOU questions! Of course, I'll still be here, but one thing is for certain. I'll never be as old as A4's and I certainly won't have to dye my hair to hide the gray. :icon_smilSRoque said:
Only if you're lucky ..... :icon_rast ... and only the good die young.Steve Wilkins said: