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Why don't the Marines fly H-60's?
- Thread starter mad dog
- Start date
Interesting but useless factoid, I believe the H-60 is the only aircraft flown by all 5 branches of the military.
Actually a good question MadDog, I almost think the savings from getting a common aircraft with the Navy and everyone else would outweigh the savings in their commonality with the AH-1. Also, I always wondered why they needed their own version when an off-the-shelf buy of 412's would have saved them a boatload in time and money. Ironic or not some Marine skid guys I ran into years ago had nothing but bad things to say about Bell itself.
Not the public reason but a factor none the less, because the Army flies them. Different helos for heavy lift, attack and transport along with different fatigues ensures the American taxpayer and politicians know who is who on TV. What is the point in having a seperate service when you have the same toys?
Actually a good question MadDog, I almost think the savings from getting a common aircraft with the Navy and everyone else would outweigh the savings in their commonality with the AH-1. Also, I always wondered why they needed their own version when an off-the-shelf buy of 412's would have saved them a boatload in time and money. Ironic or not some Marine skid guys I ran into years ago had nothing but bad things to say about Bell itself.
Not the public reason but a factor none the less, because the Army flies them. Different helos for heavy lift, attack and transport along with different fatigues ensures the American taxpayer and politicians know who is who on TV. What is the point in having a seperate service when you have the same toys?
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I've heard second-hand that USMC Huey pilots who get to poke around on a Sierra get pretty jealous...
I've heard it first hand from Huey drivers.
Oh great, we finally found a use for our birds other than plane guard and vertrep and it's in a whole other service.
Considering we bring a det of 3 60s to the amphib, that apparently isn't too much of a problem.
The Marines had legitimate concerns about anti-ships missiles and the effect it would have on amphibious shipping; therefore the Corps wanted something with much more range than a conventional helo thus the V-22. There is also the issue of a ramp for moving cargo and not having to break down pallets.
As for the Bell 412, it is a solid machine but substantially smaller and slower than the Yankee Huey. The 412's max gross is 11,900 and VNE is 140 compared to the UH-1Y's 18,500 max gross and 198 VNE.
As for the Bell 412, it is a solid machine but substantially smaller and slower than the Yankee Huey. The 412's max gross is 11,900 and VNE is 140 compared to the UH-1Y's 18,500 max gross and 198 VNE.
All tinfoil hat acquisition theories aside, parts commonality between the AH-1 and UH-1 was the main driver. Of course, if the USMC had used the H-60 there may not be parts commonality with the AH-1 but there would be parts commonality with every other H-60 in the DoD.
The footprint of the UH-1Y and the MH-60S is fairly similar. I'd wager that the MH-60S is a better boat helicopter because it has permanently installed wheels* and can automatically fold the head.
Where I the Man/Train/Equip King for a day I'd look long and hard at giving the USMC H-60s vice H-1Ys and then plussing up HMLA footprint from three H-1Ys to six H-60s. Then I'd TAD some rescue swimmers to the HMLA and the MEU could have organic SAR capability.
This may come as a shock to some USN H-60 guys who bemoan the 60's comm suite, but the MEU would often ask to use a USN H-60 as their C&C bird because of a better comm suite. Also, the ISR capability of the H-60S with the MTS has more utility than the H-1's sensor. The MEU loved the fact that the H-60 could use ROVER to send live video back to the LFOC. Finally, the grunts think that the H-60 is a far better platform to insert from. Apparently the ergonomics of roping from an H-1Y are something of a nightmare while the H-60 is very user friendly.
The footprint of the UH-1Y and the MH-60S is fairly similar. I'd wager that the MH-60S is a better boat helicopter because it has permanently installed wheels* and can automatically fold the head.
Where I the Man/Train/Equip King for a day I'd look long and hard at giving the USMC H-60s vice H-1Ys and then plussing up HMLA footprint from three H-1Ys to six H-60s. Then I'd TAD some rescue swimmers to the HMLA and the MEU could have organic SAR capability.
This may come as a shock to some USN H-60 guys who bemoan the 60's comm suite, but the MEU would often ask to use a USN H-60 as their C&C bird because of a better comm suite. Also, the ISR capability of the H-60S with the MTS has more utility than the H-1's sensor. The MEU loved the fact that the H-60 could use ROVER to send live video back to the LFOC. Finally, the grunts think that the H-60 is a far better platform to insert from. Apparently the ergonomics of roping from an H-1Y are something of a nightmare while the H-60 is very user friendly.
84-85% Commonality was a driver, but also the original purpose of the upgrades was to take old airframes and save money from the refurb process. Obviously they went the new build route and costs increased but it is probably better after the beating the W has been taking over the last 14 years. I think everyone is a fan of the H-60s (including the Marines) and the UH-1Y is a good platform that is still working some kinks out.
There are people out there that say we should've gone to an all 60 fleet. I think the 60 could do the Yankee's job, but not the Zs. I will say however that the Y does look like it has greater fields of fire for it's door guns, with the crew chiefs shooting out of the cabin vice a window just forward of the crew compartment. Once you strap on the overhanging wing stubs to a 60 it starts to get in the way. Unless mods are made to put the gunners out of the main cabin door, then it becomes a cluster trying to insert a larger amount of Marines with a door gunner in the way. The Huey typically doesn't carry a lot of pax, mainly SOF, snipers, or an R&S team prior to inserting a larger force, so it's not as difficult. The wing stores completely obscures a door gunners view, and many a Cobra pilot have been saved been a quick swivel of a crew chief on to some clowns trying to take pot shots at a skid section. Fixed 20mm on a 60 isn't an answer to a larger caliber weapon system for an attack or utility helo, off axis guns are a huge advantage for pull offs and for mutual support. I will say that I would prefer a 30mm round with a better fire control system, and due to the cockpit set up on a 60 I would find that pretty difficult to employ effectively, or at least require good CRM with the entire crew.
Multi-mission set ups are a good idea, but in reality I would think that just due to the power requirements for carrying a larger number of pax, full bag of gas, ordnance (a useable load of HF, 7.62, .50 cal, HE rockets, expendables), a good fire control system/sensor, it would start to have power issues, or at least require really good reverse planning from the objective to identify limitations prior to inserting or engaging targets. Another thing to consider is do you really want a 60 putting it's aircraft in harms way to engage targets with a large number of pax in the back? If that's the case...do we take the pax out? Then why do we have a utility aircraft trying to do an attack aircraft's job? Self escort is a great idea in theory, but not at the risk of endangering more Marines in the process, unless it can be mitigated appropriately. Lots of rabbit holes to go down on this topic, and it's commonly talked about in the Marine helo community...and yes Bell does not have a great reputation among Marines right now with how some of the upgrades stuff has been handled.
There are people out there that say we should've gone to an all 60 fleet. I think the 60 could do the Yankee's job, but not the Zs. I will say however that the Y does look like it has greater fields of fire for it's door guns, with the crew chiefs shooting out of the cabin vice a window just forward of the crew compartment. Once you strap on the overhanging wing stubs to a 60 it starts to get in the way. Unless mods are made to put the gunners out of the main cabin door, then it becomes a cluster trying to insert a larger amount of Marines with a door gunner in the way. The Huey typically doesn't carry a lot of pax, mainly SOF, snipers, or an R&S team prior to inserting a larger force, so it's not as difficult. The wing stores completely obscures a door gunners view, and many a Cobra pilot have been saved been a quick swivel of a crew chief on to some clowns trying to take pot shots at a skid section. Fixed 20mm on a 60 isn't an answer to a larger caliber weapon system for an attack or utility helo, off axis guns are a huge advantage for pull offs and for mutual support. I will say that I would prefer a 30mm round with a better fire control system, and due to the cockpit set up on a 60 I would find that pretty difficult to employ effectively, or at least require good CRM with the entire crew.
Multi-mission set ups are a good idea, but in reality I would think that just due to the power requirements for carrying a larger number of pax, full bag of gas, ordnance (a useable load of HF, 7.62, .50 cal, HE rockets, expendables), a good fire control system/sensor, it would start to have power issues, or at least require really good reverse planning from the objective to identify limitations prior to inserting or engaging targets. Another thing to consider is do you really want a 60 putting it's aircraft in harms way to engage targets with a large number of pax in the back? If that's the case...do we take the pax out? Then why do we have a utility aircraft trying to do an attack aircraft's job? Self escort is a great idea in theory, but not at the risk of endangering more Marines in the process, unless it can be mitigated appropriately. Lots of rabbit holes to go down on this topic, and it's commonly talked about in the Marine helo community...and yes Bell does not have a great reputation among Marines right now with how some of the upgrades stuff has been handled.
The -60 makes a pretty good gunship when you take full advantage of its capabilities. I've gotten to work with quite a few SOF, JTAC and other ground types at this point and once they hear the kind of weapons load out a -60 can bring to the table, they all suddenly start wishing for more.
The Sikorsky battle hawk demonstrator could have easily filled the role of the Cobra for the MC and then some, all while still leaving the utility options and parts commonality intact. As it is, even the Navy's MH-60S (as much as I hate a lot of its limitations) is very capable with its MTS, M-197, Hellfire (or guided or unguided rockets) plus a .50 in each door and M-240 in the windows. If we really wanted to make it a gunship on the cheap we could add some of the options from the -60G or L. and add miniguns or .50s to the gunners windows as well as 2 extra EWS stations.
The Sikorsky battle hawk demonstrator could have easily filled the role of the Cobra for the MC and then some, all while still leaving the utility options and parts commonality intact. As it is, even the Navy's MH-60S (as much as I hate a lot of its limitations) is very capable with its MTS, M-197, Hellfire (or guided or unguided rockets) plus a .50 in each door and M-240 in the windows. If we really wanted to make it a gunship on the cheap we could add some of the options from the -60G or L. and add miniguns or .50s to the gunners windows as well as 2 extra EWS stations.