Why are you Leaving?

[Uncle Fester]

The problem is lousy leadership, not background or experience. I'd much sooner have a helo-guy CAG who is willing to admit holes in his knowledge and knows who to listen to for recommendations, than a multi-thousand-hour Hornet guy CAG who knows it all and doesn't need to listen to your shit.

Kind of by definition, being CAG means you're making decisions affecting aviators who have different backgrounds than you do. Okay, yes, the VFA guys deliver the warheads, but you're not just leading those guys. Pointy-nose CAGs who see their job as "head VF/A boat bubba" and treat anything with 500 or higher on the side as a supporting player - appreciated, to be sure, but otherwise to be seen and not heard, with always fully-up planes and pilots and no problems - are not really any better just because of their background.

Nowadays 3/8 of the squadrons (plus the COD det) in the CAG are RW or props. He's their CAG as much as the fast jets'. Am I as a Hawkeye guy supposed to be fully confident in his decision to fling me off the pointy end in shit wx - or an HSM guy launching off the shotgun cruiser on a bad night - solely because he's got Hornet patches on his jacket? That's an Air Force mentality...only jet pilots can make decisions for jet pilots because they're jet pilots...only guys with carrier tacair backgrounds can make decisions for carrier tacair, because they're carrier tacair. Making decisions about tanking was mentioned; I can speak from experience what it's like when you can tell CATCC is in "the Hummers have the Infinite Gas cheat code" mindset.
I've heard of air wings where the helos were having serious currency and qual problems because CAG kept blowing them off (that was per their skipper, btw, not just JOPA bitching).

 

[wlawr005]

What's it like now that HSC deploys as a squadron? What would you like to do that you aren't getting an opportunity to do? Honest question, all my deployments were on a Gator. We used to comment that HS life must suck...

 

[BOMBSonHAWKEYES]

Your best TopGun, patch wearing, ACM, missile slinging god isn't worth a bit if they have neither parts, planes, maintainers, nor the support structure/organization to get them off the deck.

From my experience, the CAGs that were tactical leaders were also the best at operational management. I think the two are closely related - you essentially buy into the business side of our operation. The CAGs who were tactical zeros tended to have many other operational misgivings, a CYA attitude, and excelled at self-promotion. I cruised with a handful of CAGs and got to meet many more at the RAG, and I'm pretty sure you could fit all of them into one of the two aforementioned categories.

 

[Pags]

Boss runs flight ops. CAG makes the decisions...wx is shitty, launch. Jet is broken, divert. Cougar is shitty behind the boat, ground him.

CAG is not a Commodore like some of the Helo/VP guys may think of a wing commander. Each coast has an administrative wing, with a Commodore, designed to take care of the training, SOP, manning, etc.

CAG is supposed to be the guy that you don't mind "banging off the front at 0030 to break men and machines" in shitty weather because you know he knows EXACTLY what that means. Because he's done it.

Yeah I get the relationships, but in my experience our (Air Dept) recommendations were listened to by the ACE/MEU COs. Neither CO spent a lot of time in the tower/AATCC/TACRON monitoring flight ops, that was largely left to the Boss/Mini and then we informed the ACE/MEU of changes and our recommendations. I remember one shitty night when the ACE CO and XO were flying and the senior RW Marine was an O-4. The Boss recommended to the MEU CO to keep the assault package on the beach instead of trying to recover in the clag.

 

[jtmedli]

What's it like now that HSC deploys as a squadron? What would you like to do that you aren't getting an opportunity to do? Honest question, all my deployments were on a Gator. We used to comment that HS life must suck...

The community is sort of divided. It's two different life styles. The HS/carrier mindset and then the HS/expeditionary peeps. The differences in two squadrons based on their CV or EXP duties are pretty apparent. The "HS lifestyle" does suck compared to the guys in Bahrain getting $130/day of per diem but we also get to do some things and experience the tactics side of things (i.e. working with an airwing and doing ASUW and PR on a large scale being the most apparent example) that the expeditionary guys don't really ever get to do.

As far as things I'm not getting to do, that is a long conversation. But basically the helo community as a whole doesn't take tactics seriously and then, when we do get all 'super tactical', we miss the mark by focusing on a bunch of useless crap that doesn't matter. We also never actually do these missions that we're supposed to be training so hard for and then, when the opportunity actually does arise to work with someone who wants us (i.e. inorganic SOF teams or whatnot), we are so risk averse that Skipper, CAG, Commodore, or whoever either makes it such a HUGE deal that it's not even worth doing or won't even let us do it in the first place out of the fear that something bad MIGHT happen. Which brings me to my next point. We have a front office and WTIs who have never done ANYTHING except training missions or instructional tours. When someone is looked upon like some kind of 'tactical expert hardass' because they did ONE actual mission "back in the day" (when they were a JO) then that's pretty sad.

 

[Gatordev]

Mind you I say this as someone who long ago lost interest in most of the practiced tactics...

But basically the helo community as a whole doesn't take tactics seriously

...but this seems to be something you're seeing within HSC land. HSL and then HSM has continued to embrace and push it's tactical capabilities (granted, sometimes to an annoying level). This isn't meant as a dig on HSC land, just something I've been observing for the last 14+ years. My point is that I wouldn't say "the helo community as a whole," as that's just not what I've been seeing on both coasts and through multiple tours.

Now, actually executing many of the missions practiced? Yeah, I'm with you. Something I've complained about for a very long time.

 

[insanebikerboy]

when the opportunity actually does arise to work with someone who wants us (i.e. inorganic SOF teams or whatnot)

There's a part that you aren't mentioning, and it's that the SOF units may not trust the helo assets in real world missions. They'll train all day long back on the beach but there's a rapport that just isn't there with the run of the mill CVN squadron that can make SOF guys hesitant when bullets start flying.

It's the ultimate catch-22 because it's difficult to get that experience because CAG/etc doesn't know or doesn't trust the helos to do the stuff to get the experience and without the experience it's tough to get the trust of the SOF units.

 

[RHINOWSO]

They'll train all day long back on the beach but there's a rapport that just isn't there with the run of the mill CVN squadron that can make SOF guys hesitant when bullets start flying.

Yeah, OT but yes SOF has a preferred frequent flier pass on a specific airline...

 

[RHINOWSO]

So you worked for some shitty bosses over the years? That's it? Or is it folks who aren't VF/VFA who suck? And your solution is to further decrease the available population of folks that could possibly be a CAG? That's the same myopic self-selection that got you the shitty bosses you hated.

Naval Aviation certainly has its share of leadership issues, but you come across like a pouting dinosaur with a serious lack of appreciation for anyone who isn't in a two seat jet (Tomcat or Rhino).

Nah, not a pouting dinosaur at all - glad I left and happy with what I'm doing. And as I tried to correct a couple of posts back, I know how all Naval aviation assets have a role to play and are important, but I see how you got that impression.

I know my message got muddled with the different backgrounds of CAGs today, but the point was that almost to a person, I look at the O6s and up and roll my eyes. However, in the examples I saw, non-VFA CAGs were measurably worse than VF/VFA CAGs - and believe me the examples I saw were pretty much universally reviled across the airwing. The add at the rash of higher ups getting relieved for fucking the help, stealing money, and it's almost a bad joke.

But the leadership problem is more than flying aircraft, it's (as another poster mentioned) priorities that are so random and misplaced, they have nothing to do with war fighting or conduction the mission of a CVN.

Of course I've never been a company man and bought what I was told hook, line, and sinker - so my viewpoint could be skewed from what others perceive.

 

[RHINOWSO]

I'm gonna have to disagree with you. We're overmanned and underfunded and underflown as it is. Yet, somehow, we're also overworked. Funny how that works, isn't it? When I can't focus on flying because "..there is paperwork to be done (or whatever)" then that's a problem. I'm all about being a professional naval officer and all of that good stuff. But what RHINOSWO is talking about is how we have let that professional naval officer thing become more important than being an aviator or warfighter.

Also, shitty bosses are a result of 2 things:
1) Most importantly, being a shitty person. Miserable people make people miserable and around here the pressure is on to make it to 20 and that usually means making XO or CO which is, honestly, not what most people really want to do which results in a front office that doesn't 'really' want to be there.
2) A Navy with EXTREMELY misplaced priorities. And I do mean: EXTREMELY MISPLACED PRIORITIES. We're not combat hardened aviators, ship drivers, bubbleheads, etc... anymore. We're paper-pushers who have to find time away from the desk every now and then in order to go fly or study or get our quals. That misplaced focus has some pretty serious repercussions from the JO all the way up to the XO and CO and beyond.



"....because he's done it in a JET." FIFY. Sadly, being CAG, DCAG, Boat Skipper, etc... usually doesn't mean they have much of a clue or appreciation for what the helos are doing which is part of the problem that RHINOSWO is advocating. That general lack of appreciation for the missions or capabilities of the helos which has led to the HSC and HSM communities' mindset being all fucked up.

I'm just going to say I agree with pretty much everything you say here.

And I'll say it again, ALL NAVAL AVIATION communities are valuable and have a role to play. I was able to work with the HS guys a bit more than the average bear, but I know they were chapping under the bridle of an idiotic CAG, as were we VFA types (dual and the single seat master race types Which I also have the utmost respect for - my ideal A/A division is an F leading 3 pipe hitters in Es)

 

[Brett327]

However, in the examples I saw, non-VFA CAGs were measurably worse than VF/VFA CAGs.

What kind of numbers are you basing this on? One, maybe two? I've had a couple of shitty VF/VFA CAGs over the years, but I'm not going to draw any broad conclusions based on an anecdotal sample size of two. Can you honestly tell this group of experienced folks that you're going to color guys from a certain TMS as unworthy based on your very narrow personal experiences? Am I reading you correctly, or am I missing something?

 

[RHINOWSO]

What kind of numbers are you basing this on? One, maybe two? I've had a couple of shitty VF/VFA CAGs over the years, but I'm not going to draw any broad conclusions based on an anecdotal sample size of two. Can you honestly tell this group of experienced folks that you're going to color guys from a certain TMS as unworthy based on your very narrow personal experiences? Am I reading you correctly, or am I missing something?

3 CAGs/DCAGs and 3 VS to VFA transition to XO/CO who followed in the same path / vein. Some other cats and dogs that transitioned at various levels as well reinforced it.

Again, the CAG / community discussion is a sidenote to my opinion that in general leadership at the O-6 and above severely lacking.

Now if you want to go down the rabbit hole that there was a certain separation of aviation skill levels in flights school as people chose or were assigned communities - that's another thread, which I'm more than happy to participate in.

 

[RHINOWSO]

Non-CV question: Where is the Boss in all of this if CAG is running flight ops? Maybe apples to oranges but on the LHD the MEU CO generally let the Air Dept run the air plan and deal with adjusting the plan as required for operational needs. The CO would be read in, but it was largely informational vice decisional.

Airboss is usually a post command pilot / NFO who has hit the offramp (aka, has no shot at CAG / O6), although I think they have had some non-command O5s do it, or at least do the MiniBoss job.

It's his job to run the flight deck for the Captain of the ship.

He obviously works with the CAG to ensure that things run smoothly, but he is ships company and not in the CAGs command.

 

[Pags]

Airboss is usually a post command pilot / NFO who has hit the offramp (aka, has no shot at CAG / O6), although I think they have had some non-command O5s do it, or at least do the MiniBoss job.

It's his job to run the flight deck for the Captain of the ship.

He obviously works with the CAG to ensure that things run smoothly, but he is ships company and not in the CAGs command.

Yeah, I got the organizational relationships. From some of the anecdotes it just seemed that The CAGs in the stories were far more involved in the execution of the airplan with things like how to recover, when to tank, etc than I would imagine based on my experiences as a Mini on an LHD. But maybe it's just an apples to oranges thing.

 

[Brett327]

3 CAGs/DCAGs and 3 VS to VFA transition to XO/CO who followed in the same path / vein. Some other cats and dogs that transitioned at various levels as well reinforced it.

Again, the CAG / community discussion is a sidenote to my opinion that in general leadership at the O-6 and above severely lacking.

Now if you want to go down the rabbit hole that there was a certain separation of aviation skill levels in flights school as people chose or were assigned communities - that's another thread, which I'm more than happy to participate in.

So you're talking about 3 CAGs/DCAGs. Got it.