What's the deal with the MV-22?

[BRM21o]

Is it ever going to be put in service? How much longer will the CH-46E last? Anybody have any idea what the helicopter flightline will look like in say 2008 (damn that seems like a long time from now...can't wait)? Will the updated Cobra's and Huey's be in service? Why don't the Marines purchase some Blackhawk's instead of updating the Huey?

 

[46Driver]

Last I heard the Phrog was going to be around until the year 2025 - I am not kidding. The Corps won't purchase H-60's because of politics - unlike the Army, Navy, and Air Force who buy everything from Sikorsky, the Marines are in bed with Bell Helicopter. The Blackhawk also would make the Huey upgrade not needed in addition to replacing the 46. Go to www.G2mil.com there is a very good article on the problems of the V-22, particularly its inability to handle high altitudes such as in Afghanistan due primarily to high blade loading.

 

[Rainman]

46 Driver. .. got all the respect in the world for you .. so no need to earn it.. but WTF?????

That website is extrememly liberal!! I really can't believe you're using that as a source. This jackass has something bad to say about the MV22??? He has poopy things to say about the Marines, the war on Iraq as well as our government and military .. . .. come on.

While I'm sure you can spout things that the MV22 can't do that the CH46 can do. . please. . .the 46 must go away. . ..it is time. ...nobody likes flying 30-40 year old aircraft whether it has two rotors or two turbo jets with no better than a TACAN onboard (t2). .

The bottom line is that we (marines) can be operational with an MV22 before we could a -60 or a -64 at this point with a LOT better results ( in the marine corps' leadership position). .

 

[46Driver]

Just because the guy is a "liberal" (I would call him a cynic) doesn't mean he might not be correct. I used G2mil because I am not that good with posting links. However, the article is from Raleigh (NC) News and Observer. If you go further and read the 119 page report, it will basically tell you that there are some things due to physics that the Osprey will always have a problem with (landing at high altitudes due to blade loading, vortex ring state which caused the last one to crash in Arizona). Also, I have carried 18 pax in the Phrog before and we were packed - the Osprey cabin is not any bigger and it is being sold as to carry 24?

As to the comment about 30 to 40 year old aircraft, one only has to look at the Vietnam era Huey and Cobra. Same goes for the Air Forces B-52's, and how much would the Marines love to have some 60 year old battleships for fire support? That being said, the Phrog should go away and be replaced by the S-92, EH-101 or a variant of the H-60.

The last option would be the most logical considering the worldwide logistics, the fact that the Navy's MH-60 is rolling off the assembly line as we speak, the price of a MH-60 (about $15M compared to a MV-22's $70M to $105M) and the the versatility of the H-60 (either troop transport or gunship with the DAP package). This versatility lends itself nicely to the split ARG concept (the big deck goes one place with the bulk of the MEU while the LPD deploys with 4 to 6 helos and a rifle company). For reference, there was a Marine Corps Gazette article from about 1995 by then Capt (now LtCol) James Cox that said the same thing. Finally, the Navy has granted Piasecki a $26M contract to study the concept of the "Compound Helicopter" - the Army and Air Force are quite interested in it as well. (In short, a compound helo uses a small set of wings to unload the main rotor delaying retreating blade stall thus increasing maximum forward speed - usually, this is combined with some type of swivelable tail rotor / pusher propellor) At any rate, the range doubles and airspeed increases to over 200 knots.

PS: The Phrog has more than a Tacan since the introduction of the CNCS cockpit mod with embedded GPS.

Good luck with training and have fun in the fleet - are you shooting for the F/A-18, AV-8B, or EA-6B?

 

[neo]

hey 46 - rainman doesn't seem to understand that liberal does not always equal wrong and conservative does not always equal right, well it's always right, just not always correct

 

[Rainman]

Neo, I don't understand anything -- I'm a HUD cripple.

Roger all 46Drv. . Good points . I was all riled up and having a good time. Tacan comment was for my Buckeye Breathern to rouse them up a bit.

I've always wanted to fly 18s. . .But not really too concerned. Quite a stigma here about the "harrier cut" and not getting "stuck" in Harriers; Like a lot of green a/c it's got a tremendous mission. so hey. . of course I'll take what they give me. . . . .like many I'll probably request Hornets Miramar (sounds like a decent gig). . thoughts?

 

[46Driver]

I don't think you can go wrong with any of them. The Hornet would be a blast, the Harrier allows you to float with the MEU instead of with the Navy, and the EA-6B is a national asset. I'd say go with location and be where you want to live, you are going to have a great time flying whichever jet you are assigned.

 

[kimphil]

Hey 46Driver,

Don't you know that anything quoted from a liberal has no credibility?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mongol General: ...Conan, what is best in life?
Conan: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women!
Mongol General: That is good.

 

[DBLang]

Blackhawks dont have the same lift capacity as 46's do they?

 

[46Driver]

The H-60 has more lift capacity than than the H-46 (for example, it can external a Humvee) but it has less interior cubic capacity which limits space for troops or cargo. (the H-60 usually limits out around 12 fully loaded troops space wise - I am going to check on this) The one thing the Marine Corps really wants is a ramp to facilitate loading cargo via tri-walls (basically palletized cargo) that the H-60 would have a hard time doing (the H-92 has a ramp for this reason).

 

[phrogdriver]

My personal fave is the US101 (American licenced Eurocopter 101), though big savings would occur if we got a Seahawk/Blackhawk/Knighthawk variant.

The V-22 has a new problem everytime I turn around. This month they're having problems with the hydraulics. Apparently the 1500 and 3000 psi lines every other helo uses aren't enough for the V-22, which uses 6000 psi hydro for flight controls. The fluid goes through titanium lines, which also have to pivot at the nacelles, and also leak like sieves, not to mention that 6000psi could cut a man in half.

It incorporates the best and worst of helos and f/w in one package. If hand-picked crews at Pax River and VMMT-204 couldn't make it work, how is it going to work in the field after flying in crappy conditions and exceeding time-between-maintenance guidelines?

I've landed in some places in a 46 that I know a V-22 couldn't go. It just isn't ready for primetime yet.

Phrogs phorever

 

[perchul]

I ran into a man who is working on the osprey today, and I asked him whether they had most of the kinks worked out because it was one of the vehicles I'd like to fly if things work the way I want them to...he just looked at me and said ifI wa a pilot I wouldn't fly it...but they have to get it work well at some point, right?

 

[phrogdriver]

I don't know. There have been plenty of aircraft that entered service that still sucked. Eventually helicopters will be surpassed in vertical flight by some other technology. Just as when we transitioned from props to jets in the 50s and early 60s, there will be some crashes. Unfortunately, in an assault aircraft, there's a lot more lives riding on the thing, and none of them have ejection seats!

Phrogs phorever

 

[Q-ball]

I agree that the S-92 or the 60 would be a better choice than the 22, but we all know that we have spent far too much time and money on it to ditch it. Phrogdriver is right, there is no way that the 22 can go into the same sized zones that the 46 can. We have 22's in our hanger here in New River, and the distance between the damn things rotor tips is bigger than my 53. Also, I could only imagine the amount of dust the 22 would kick up going into a sandy zone. What we should do is scrap the osprey while we can, and slap those engines onto the 53. 6000 shp would be a mighty big boost for my sh**ter.

Q-ball

Marine Helo Pilot

 

[vegita1220]

Don't know much on this...but I gotta ask...why are the Marines hanging on to Vietnam era helicopters which are expected to fly daily through a hail of small arms fire? With teh AF B-52, it's not so bad, since you're basically flying a very old, deadly airliner, but with a helicopter? Seems like a terrible idea...I do think the Bell politics has something to do with it.