What happens at Tahoe doesn't stay at Tahoe; What would Gramps say?

[PhrogLoop]

Do any of you helo drivers just bust out a quick power check? In other words, try holding a HOGE in a spot which allows a safe waveoff. If you can't hold that hover, you may need to re-evaluate...The power check has been a pretty solid indicator of whether a landing or hover is going to be possible.

For overland SAR scenarios, especially in mountainous areas, one of our techniques is to attempt to hold a hover 1000' above the intended point of rescue. That gives you a comfortable safety margin for a power pull or waveoff. I wouldn't use that as a replacement for preflight planning, but more as a useful tool in a time-critical situation. Jeez, I sound like a Safety Stand Down.

 

[Pags]

For overland SAR scenarios, especially in mountainous areas, one of our techniques is to attempt to hold a hover 1000' above the intended point of rescue. That gives you a comfortable safety margin for a power pull or waveoff. I wouldn't use that as a replacement for preflight planning, but more as a useful tool in a time-critical situation. Jeez, I sound like a Safety Stand Down.

With the common cockpit you can also easily find the current PA/DA from the Nav Table to make sure that what you crunched in preflight is still valid. A high HOGE might be a good indication of having the power available, but it can require more than HOGE power to get into CALs, pinnacles, etc; so there's still the possibility of Pr>Pa if your power margin is slim. There's really little substitute for crunching the numbers in preflight if you have an idea of where you're going or at least using worst case scenario numbers. Flying a helo at high altitudes (or any other power limited scenario) can be a good way to get yourself in trouble, especially if you didn't plan properly.

My old squadron had some interesting times doing earth quake relief in Pakistan in 2005-6 timeframe. LTE sent the helo spinning down the side of a mountain. They came back with at least one hole in their blades from a tree.

 

[phrogpilot73]

For the Phrog, the Q you're pulling to go 100 knots = the Q you pull in a HOGE. It's a pretty easy way to check your preflight planning before you get in trouble...

 

[phrogdriver]

Or you have a performance calculator in your Cockpit Management System..:icon_wink

 

[KBayDog]

For the Phrog, the Q you're pulling to go 100 knots = the Q you pull in a HOGE. It's a pretty easy way to check your preflight planning before you get in trouble...

Flippin' Reservists.

 

[phrogpilot73]

Or you have a performance calculator in your Cockpit Management System..:icon_wink

After working on Avionics Software for the 53K, I trust my steam gauges even more...

Flippin' Reservists.

You're just jealous!!

 

[Pags]

Or you have a performance calculator in your Cockpit Management System..:icon_wink

I have one of those; it's called the PCL.

 

[KBayDog]

You're just jealous!!

Nah, that would be "Flippin' Retirees!"

 

[insanebikerboy]

Interestingly, HOGE power isn't takeoff power, so just because you could HOGE doesn't mean you have power to climb out. In this case if they would've checked they would've had room to cut and run but in the case of a CAL landing, they would've been screwed.

 

[H60Gunner]

So, a long (not really THAT long) time ago when I went through the mtn flying course at Fallon, pilots were taught to pull power at the LZ alt till we drooped. Then, make a magical calculation, look at DA/PA, winds and determine if we would/could loose tra at the bottom of the approach or not. This was after a bunch of Pr<Pa incidents with the -60 at high altitude. What happened to that maneuver?

 

[phrogdriver]

Interestingly, HOGE power isn't takeoff power, so just because you could HOGE doesn't mean you have power to climb out. In this case if they would've checked they would've had room to cut and run but in the case of a CAL landing, they would've been screwed.

As long as there is room in front of you, it should be more than t/o power. I've taken off with less than HOGE available

 

[busdriver]

You should be able to clear a 100ft obstacle with HOGE, so basically if you can get in with HOGE, you should be able to get out. If you have to stabilize in an OGE hover just to get in, you'll need more than that. In other words, an OGE hover requires more than HOGE power.

 

[insanebikerboy]

As long as there is room in front of you, it should be more than t/o power. I've taken off with less than HOGE available

That's what I was getting at, these guys were lucky because they had room, if it had been something else, say they wanted to look cool over an LZ or something that was cal-like, it could've been much worse

 

[Gatordev]

So, a long (not really THAT long) time ago when I went through the mtn flying course at Fallon, pilots were taught to pull power at the LZ alt till we drooped. Then, make a magical calculation, look at DA/PA, winds and determine if we would/could loose tra at the bottom of the approach or not. This was after a bunch of Pr<Pa incidents with the -60 at high altitude. What happened to that maneuver?

That's all still used. We would use a similar technique in Haiti w/ our fat (note: not phat) helos inbound to the beach just to see where we stood on power available w/ two engines. If we drooped w/ less than max continuous (which we never did) we were good. If we drooped before max Tq allowed, it was something to note and work with.

 

[phrogpilot73]

You should be able to clear a 100ft obstacle with HOGE, so basically if you can get in with HOGE, you should be able to get out. If you have to stabilize in an OGE hover just to get in, you'll need more than that. In other words, an OGE hover requires more than HOGE power.

Huh? That makes no sense. HOGE = Hover Out of Ground Effect. We calculate ours for no-wind out of ground effect hovering. Unless you're talking about how high a hover you're in. (i.e. a 100 foot hover vice a 50 foot hover)