VT Checkrides for Biennial Flight Review?

[Wingnut172N]

I am looking into getting a GA checkout and flying places during the weekends. In talking with the CFI at the local FBO, he said that military checkrides could be used in place of a BFR. In addition I can use my upchit as an FAA medical.

The upchit is no problem, but I'm curious if VT checkrides count, seeing as we aren't NATOPS qualified in the aircraft we are getting checked out in?

 

[squorch2]

You'd need to talk to the CFI guy. He's the one signing you off.

(also might want to talk to your safety dept - they may want you to do some ORM prior to going up)

 

[Gatordev]

Obviously you can get different answers from different FSDOs, but the last time I asked (a while ago), the consensus was Instrument checks and NATOPS checks were the "official" checkrides accepted. Maybe that consensus has changed, so you could call the AL FSDO (I think that's where they are).

I look at it this way (perhaps mistakenly): what equivelent are you getting signed off for in the VTs? A safe for solo is very specific, so it's not as all-inclusive as a BFR (or whatever we call them now). Your I4390 (or whatever it is in the T-6) probably is similar to an Instrument check ride, but there's no real "qual" obtained from it, just a grade sheet.

The NATOPS and the Instrument check both generate specific forms with specific numbers (hours, flight duration, type, etc), which is easier to back up than a "simple" grade sheet.

All that said, if you hear otherwise, please share. At the end of the day, a flight school check ride has the potential to be much more demanding than some BFR/IPCs on the civilian side.

 

[Swanee]

I've heard that because a BFR is NOT a checkride, but a simple refresher as you can't fail a BFR, that most FSDOs recognize a FAM check as a BFR. You go over the same type of stuff, stall awareness, some emergencies, the landing pattern and flight rules. At least that is how it has worked for my glider rating when I was due for a BFR.

 

[jtmedli]

In addition I can use my upchit as an FAA medical.

Just curious. Where is this written?

 

[squorch2]

All over the site.

 

[jtmedli]

All over the site.

Well played, Sir. Well played indeed.

 

[BACONATOR]

Obviously you can get different answers from different FSDOs, but the last time I asked (a while ago), the consensus was Instrument checks and NATOPS checks were the "official" checkrides accepted. Maybe that consensus has changed, so you could call the AL FSDO (I think that's where they are).

I look at it this way (perhaps mistakenly): what equivelent are you getting signed off for in the VTs? A safe for solo is very specific, so it's not as all-inclusive as a BFR (or whatever we call them now). Your I4390 (or whatever it is in the T-6) probably is similar to an Instrument check ride, but there's no real "qual" obtained from it, just a grade sheet.

The NATOPS and the Instrument check both generate specific forms with specific numbers (hours, flight duration, type, etc), which is easier to back up than a "simple" grade sheet.

All that said, if you hear otherwise, please share. At the end of the day, a flight school check ride has the potential to be much more demanding than some BFR/IPCs on the civilian side.

Agree with all. This is the conversation I had with my FSDO in SD after I didn't get an airplane instrument rating through the competency course in pcola after winging. FSDO typed up a new license with "airplane instrument" after I showed them I4390 in my logbook, a description of it in the MPTS etc etc from my records. So.... I4390 DOES give you a qual... a civilian rating, anyway.

 

[KBayDog]

Just curious. Where is this written?

61.23

(b) Operations not requiring a medical certificate. A person is not required to hold a medical certificate—
......

(9) When a military pilot of the U.S. Armed Forces can show evidence of an up-to-date medical examination authorizing pilot flight status issued by the U.S. Armed Forces and—
(i) The flight does not require higher than a third-class medical certificate; and
(ii) The flight conducted is a domestic flight operation within U.S. airspace.

 

[FlyingOnFumes]

According to the FAR, a military flight check does count as a flight review IF you already hold a rating in the category and class of aircraft that you're doing the review in the VT, which unless you're already single-engine with complex and high-performance endorsement (assuming T-34 / T-6B), I don't know if that would apply.

The other question is, whether you're allowed to log military flight time as civilian.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...node=14:2.0.1.1.2&idno=14#14:2.0.1.1.2.1.1.35

§ 61.56 Flight review

​

"(c) Except as provided in paragraphs (d), (e), and (g) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft unless, since the beginning of the 24th calendar month before the month in which that pilot acts as pilot in command, that person has—​

​

(1) Accomplished a flight review given in an aircraft for which that pilot is rated by an authorized instructor and​

​

(2) A logbook endorsed from an authorized instructor who gave the review certifying that the person has satisfactorily completed the review.​

​

(d) A person who has, within the period specified in paragraph (c) of this section, passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege need not accomplish the flight review required by this section."​

​

I believe Jackie Spanitz book on Flight Reviews also mentions it.

 

[Gatordev]

According to the FAR, a military flight check does count as a flight review IF you already hold a rating in the category and class of aircraft that you're doing the review in the VT, which unless you're already single-engine with complex and high-performance endorsement (assuming T-34 / T-6B), I don't know if that would apply.

The other question is, whether you're allowed to log military flight time as civilian.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...node=14:2.0.1.1.2&idno=14#14:2.0.1.1.2.1.1.35

§ 61.56 Flight review

​

"(c) Except as provided in paragraphs (d), (e), and (g) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft unless, since the beginning of the 24th calendar month before the month in which that pilot acts as pilot in command, that person has—​

​

(1) Accomplished a flight review given in an aircraft for which that pilot is rated by an authorized instructor and​

​

(2) A logbook endorsed from an authorized instructor who gave the review certifying that the person has satisfactorily completed the review.​

​

(d) A person who has, within the period specified in paragraph (c) of this section, passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege need not accomplish the flight review required by this section."​

​

I believe Jackie Spanitz book on Flight Reviews also mentions it.

No one is arguing whether this applies, but whether a VT "checkride" counts. It may, but I'd ask the FSDO and not assume it does. By that same logic, an IPC or FPC would count, which are only given when you really suck, or suck over an extended period of time.

FSDO: "You want to use this FPC as a BFR? What's a FPC?"
SNA: "Well, I really struggled with landings. I failed several flights and had an IPC. Then I tanked my SFS and got a FPC. But I passed, so I'd like it to count for a BFR."
FSDO: "Uh....okay..."


It may very well count, so I'm not saying to not ask, but I wouldn't assume it equates to an instrument check or NATOPS check as far as the FAA IPC or BFR goes.

 

[Swanee]

No one is arguing whether this applies, but whether a VT "checkride" counts. It may, but I'd ask the FSDO and not assume it does. By that same logic, an IPC or FPC would count, which are only given when you really suck, or suck over an extended period of time.

FSDO: "You want to use this FPC as a BFR? What's a FPC?"
SNA: "Well, I really struggled with landings. I failed several flights and had an IPC. Then I tanked my SFS and got a FPC. But I passed, so I'd like it to count for a BFR."
FSDO: "Uh....okay..."


It may very well count, so I'm not saying to not ask, but I wouldn't assume it equates to an instrument check or NATOPS check as far as the FAA IPC or BFR goes.

But the argument can be made that a VT SFS is a check conducted not for a rating but for an operating privilege. And again, the BFR isn't a check; you can't fail a BFR.

 

[Gatordev]

But the argument can be made that a VT SFS is a check conducted not for a rating but for an operating privilege. And again, the BFR isn't a check; you can't fail a BFR.

I agree the argument can be made. I even agree it makes sense, but what proof do you have other than a grade sheet that says "Safe for Solo." The entry in your logbook is not really any different than the previous 12 "C4xxx" flights (except it has the "X" at the end). Again, all I'm saying is it's worth asking the FSDO for confirmation.

 

[FlyingOnFumes]

I agree the argument can be made. I even agree it makes sense, but what proof do you have other than a grade sheet that says "Safe for Solo." The entry in your logbook is not really any different than the previous 12 "C4xxx" flights (except it has the "X" at the end). Again, all I'm saying is it's worth asking the FSDO for confirmation.

I think the key sticking point is:

"(1) Accomplished a flight review given in an aircraft for which that pilot is rated by an authorized instructor and..."​

As a VT stud, are you actually considered "rated" pre-solo, let alone without your wings yet?

 

[Swanee]

I think the key sticking point is:

"(1) Accomplished a flight review given in an aircraft for which that pilot is rated by an authorized instructor and..."​

As a VT stud, are you actually considered "rated" pre-solo, let alone without your wings yet?

If you already have your PPL or better ticket with a complex endorsement you're rated.


Not sure if the FSDO guy figured I was rated in the T-45, but he counted it. And it reset my clock for my glider BFR date. (I only hold a PPL-Glider)