V/STOL Hover question(s)

[JTB7]

Video:
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/990381/live_free_or_die_hard/

After watching Live Free or Die Hard 4, I was wondering if the F-35b(or the harrier) can actually do anything remotely like this. I always thought the VTOL's were only used to take off vertically . Yes, I know its a movie and the bird was animated but can it hover and attack stuff like an attack helicopter?(granted not as dramatic as the scene in DH4:icon_tong)

 

[Uncle Fester]

No.

 

[phrogdriver]

The Harrier can use its nozzles in forward flight. I am by no means an expert, but it is mostly a defensive maneuver in ACM, if used at all--effects resemble throwing out speed brakes. The British called it VIFFing (Vector in Forward Flight), and advertised it as a capability against the Argentines, but never actually employed it in combat. It is not helicopter-type maneuvering.

Harrier and (so I have read) F-35 pilots have to carefully manage their ordnance and fuel loads just to be able to hover at all, much less maneuver wildly down low, a la "DH4" or "True Lies."

Besides, a jet's asset is being able to move fast and displace from enemy fire. Firing from a hover doesn't really capitalize on that.

 

[FLYTPAY]

The Harrier can use its nozzles in forward flight. I am by no means an expert, but it is mostly a defensive maneuver in ACM, if used at all--effects resemble throwing out speed brakes.

Phrog.....I think you have been watching a bit too much Topgun. ACM is a regime where you do not want to waste energy. Putting the speedbrakes out does exactly that. If you need to slow down, you are in a one-circle fight (wiki BFM). He who hits the brick wall first, loses. You actually want to convert your kinetic energy (speed) into potential (altitude). Of course there are exceptions to every rule (SU-27) but in general, don't put the speedbrakes out unless you are landing. Furthermore, if you are defensive and you put the boards out, you are limiting your guns-d possibilities. Now let me tell you a little bit about hovering in a hot LZ............

 

[Waldo]

Hovering is a way to land. It is not a maneuver used to employ ordnance.

Best Regards,
Waldo

 

[phrogdriver]

Phrog.....I think you have been watching a bit too much Topgun. ACM is a regime where you do not want to waste energy. Putting the speedbrakes out does exactly that. If you need to slow down, you are in a one-circle fight (wiki BFM). He who hits the brick wall first, loses. You actually want to convert your kinetic energy (speed) into potential (altitude). Of course there are exceptions to every rule (SU-27) but in general, don't put the speedbrakes out unless you are landing. Furthermore, if you are defensive and you put the boards out, you are limiting your guns-d possibilities. Now let me tell you a little bit about hovering in a hot LZ............

I NEVER said to go DO THAT! I just said that it could be done, and that I know it was thrown around as a tactic by the Brits in the Falklands era. I know it's something I wouldn't do.

I know that you want to keep your energy up. I was not advocating any tactic, just saying that it does, in fact, exist, or at least was one that Harrier advocates threw out at one point in time. Don't put words in my mouth. I think I made it clear that I wasn't offering tactical advice, just saying that there is that capability.

 

[FLYTPAY]

I NEVER said to go DO THAT! I just said that it could be done, and that I know it was thrown around as a tactic by the Brits in the Falklands era. I know it's something I wouldn't do.

I know that you want to keep your energy up. I was not advocating any tactic, just saying that it does, in fact, exist, or at least was one that Harrier advocates threw out at one point in time. Don't put words in my mouth. I think I made it clear that I wasn't offering tactical advice, just saying that there is that capability.

I was demonstrating the tactic for sucking in and getting a rise out of someone

 

[phrogdriver]

I was demonstrating the tactic for sucking in and getting a rise out of someone

Telling a Marine pilot that he watches Top Gun for anything but kitsch appeal will definitely do just that.

 

[FLYTPAY]

Telling a Marine pilot that he watches Top Gun for anything but kitsch appeal will definitely do just that.

Maybe I shouldn't tell you that I whistled a Kenny Loggins tune walking to the jet yesterday

 

[insanebikerboy]

Maybe I shouldn't tell you that I whistled a Kenny Loggins tune walking to the jet yesterday

Yeah? Were you thinking about Kevin Bacon while you were doing it? Hey, don't ask don't tell....

 

[Banjo33]

Actually, Phrog is right. We do use it in ACM. It offers us some VERY unique advantages, especially considering we're at a couple of serious disadvantages. But, I'm not going into any more detail!

 

[trongod46]

once again all you need to learn about everything is from flytpay

 

[FLY_USMC]

The question I have is I am assuming the gun on the Harrier is run on bleed air....which leads me to wonder if you attempted to fire the gun in the hover...1.) would it take too much thrust from the motor and 2.) is the gun canted enough that it wouldn't hit the nose gear if it was extended? Just food for thought, my guess is yes and yes....and yes I'm bored.

 

[phrogdriver]

Does any gun work off bleed air? Considering the cyclic rate would change with power setting, I would think that would work poorly.

Especially since the AV-8s cannon is in a detatchable pod, I'm betting on electrically operated. Most extremely high-rate-of-fire cannons are.

 

[vick]

Phrog, you lost points on that one, it does actually run on bleed air. Hot gas reingestion, among other things, drives NATOPS limitations on min airspeed to fire.

And yes, nozzles can be used for BFM but not everyone is a fan of it. More of a last ditch maneuver or maybe to tweak it over the top on a roller. Probably the most common usage of nozzles in flight is to control closure - joining on lead or a tanker, you can carry lots of smash early on and then kill it quickly. Just gotta remember to put 'em back aft, at least one perfectly good jet has been shelled out of thanks to that little imperative...