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US Airways Pilots Leave ALPA Fold
- Thread starter Flugelman
- Start date
ALPA is so fucked up. The past several ALPA presidents and their "yes-men" have been next to useless and self-serving, in one man's opinion.
ALPA national has been screwed up ever since whoring itself out to a few interest groups during the deregulation battles in 1977-78. LPP's split the group down the middle, and the advent of the "B" scale didn't help, either. The rise (and now-- the fall?) of "low cost (and low pilot salary) carriers" and their undercutting of the traditional, "legacy" carriers' bowl of rice has been a problem ever since the "Deregulation Act" was born.
I say "deregulation" w/ tongue-in-cheek, as the only part of the industry that's really "deregulated" is wages paid to employees. The government still has their grubby fingers deep into the airline industry everywhere else ...
The trouble w/ leaving ALPA (for all it's faults) is: when you have a "smaller independent" union -- it makes it relatively easier for management to pick you off -- which is the object of the exercise in management's game.
The US Airways situation was brought about by the US Air/America West attempt at morphing their two seniority lists -- one more senior than the other. I don't know if that's gonna happen at NWA/DAL, as these two groups have worked together in the past on issues of common interest. But then again, the NWA list is relatively more "senior" than the DAL list and the day is long.
But at the end of the day, the bottom line, as always = $$$$$ .... :sleep_125
ALPA national has been screwed up ever since whoring itself out to a few interest groups during the deregulation battles in 1977-78. LPP's split the group down the middle, and the advent of the "B" scale didn't help, either. The rise (and now-- the fall?) of "low cost (and low pilot salary) carriers" and their undercutting of the traditional, "legacy" carriers' bowl of rice has been a problem ever since the "Deregulation Act" was born.
I say "deregulation" w/ tongue-in-cheek, as the only part of the industry that's really "deregulated" is wages paid to employees. The government still has their grubby fingers deep into the airline industry everywhere else ...
The trouble w/ leaving ALPA (for all it's faults) is: when you have a "smaller independent" union -- it makes it relatively easier for management to pick you off -- which is the object of the exercise in management's game.
The US Airways situation was brought about by the US Air/America West attempt at morphing their two seniority lists -- one more senior than the other. I don't know if that's gonna happen at NWA/DAL, as these two groups have worked together in the past on issues of common interest. But then again, the NWA list is relatively more "senior" than the DAL list and the day is long.
But at the end of the day, the bottom line, as always = $$$$$ .... :sleep_125
Unless something has changed ... DAL was always historically "non union" ... except for the pilots = ALPA.IIRC, wasn't Delta a non-union airline at one time? Or was it only a group within the airline non-union? My memory fails me... (happening more often these days)
I have had a long "love-hate" relationship with ALPA over many years, having worked for, with, and even once against the association. I do agree the association has often lacked effective leadership, and has been far less effective than they ought to have been.
Although ALPA in this case of USAirways didn't manage the problem well, they were mostly caught between a rock and hard place in this instance, with few options. Two years after the merger, the two pilot groups have not yet been integrated since the unusual seniority arbitration award placed both pilot groups at great odds against each other. The "binding" arbitration is trying to be "unbound" by many, and its decision is in limbo. ALPA was caught in the unusual situation of have the duty to represent both angry pilot groups as they fought each other over seniority. To avoid conflict of interest, (and to not antagonize and risk losing the entire pilot group - which is what eventually did happen today) they did little.
It will be ugly at that airline for quite some long time. I understand an unfriendly management has already pulled some agreements with pilots that existed under ALPA. It will take time for the new, very small, independent union (USAPA) to gain any traction initially. And many pilots say they will not join. Pilots are now scrambling since some taken-for-granted benefits immediately disappeared today. It will be a long time for the two pilot groups to finally be integrated. Bitterness will likely linger for the rest of their careers, no matter how it all plays out. I hear there were a lot of calls to lawyers today from many pilots.
The action today underscores the great difficulty in attaining a successful airline merger; it raises a warning flag to those involved in a NWA/DAL deal, and any other possible combinations being bandied about. However, NWA/DAL being legacy carriers, and more similar than the legacy USAirways and low cost upstart AWA combination, their seniority integration should be somewhat easier. But having been the victim of a merger many years ago, I can tell you few pilots are ever satisfied with the result.
Airline deregulation was never pilot friendly, and after nearly three decades, its effects are even worse. That long-sought 'holy grail' of a national seniority list would help, but that will never happen.
Indeed as always, and as A4s says, the bottom line is $$$$.
Although ALPA in this case of USAirways didn't manage the problem well, they were mostly caught between a rock and hard place in this instance, with few options. Two years after the merger, the two pilot groups have not yet been integrated since the unusual seniority arbitration award placed both pilot groups at great odds against each other. The "binding" arbitration is trying to be "unbound" by many, and its decision is in limbo. ALPA was caught in the unusual situation of have the duty to represent both angry pilot groups as they fought each other over seniority. To avoid conflict of interest, (and to not antagonize and risk losing the entire pilot group - which is what eventually did happen today) they did little.
It will be ugly at that airline for quite some long time. I understand an unfriendly management has already pulled some agreements with pilots that existed under ALPA. It will take time for the new, very small, independent union (USAPA) to gain any traction initially. And many pilots say they will not join. Pilots are now scrambling since some taken-for-granted benefits immediately disappeared today. It will be a long time for the two pilot groups to finally be integrated. Bitterness will likely linger for the rest of their careers, no matter how it all plays out. I hear there were a lot of calls to lawyers today from many pilots.
The action today underscores the great difficulty in attaining a successful airline merger; it raises a warning flag to those involved in a NWA/DAL deal, and any other possible combinations being bandied about. However, NWA/DAL being legacy carriers, and more similar than the legacy USAirways and low cost upstart AWA combination, their seniority integration should be somewhat easier. But having been the victim of a merger many years ago, I can tell you few pilots are ever satisfied with the result.
Airline deregulation was never pilot friendly, and after nearly three decades, its effects are even worse. That long-sought 'holy grail' of a national seniority list would help, but that will never happen.
Indeed as always, and as A4s says, the bottom line is $$$$.
IIRC, wasn't Delta a non-union airline at one time? Or was it only a group within the airline non-union? My memory fails me... (happening more often these days
As stated above Delta only has a Pilot's Union. My family is big Delta family so it worries me about mergers and stuff sometimes. Never know when those pensions go away.
I think it's crap. Reregulate the airlines and the problem will solve itself. (noted that is very vague)
not pretending to understand this, but why shouldn't they just count the number of years everyone works and leave it at that? i mean, 25 > 20 > 15 > 10 > 5, right?
Wrong.
Because, for example, if you work at an airline for 25 years that only flies domestic and/or has only narrow-body aircraft -- you may not (probably won't) make the money that another pilot makes when working at an airline for 15 years that flies wide-bodies and goes international.
Big difference. Comprende??
Wrong.
Because, for example, if you work at an airline for 25 years that only flies domestic and/or has only narrow-body aircraft -- you may not (probably won't) make the money that another pilot makes when working at an airline for 15 years that flies wide-bodies and goes international.
Big difference. Comprende??
ah. ok. i get it. thanks!
The USAPA guys are going to be hurting as a union. They do not have the money, resources or expertise available to ALPA. Lose of license insurance, loss of medical insurance, life insurance, legal expertise, lobbying, ASAP program, aeromedical, etc. are no longer available. When one of their pilots get sideways with the company or FAA, the help ALPA provided is just not going to be there anymore. The pilots who voted for USAPA will regret it in the long run.
To make matters worst, the 2-3 years of delays toward a single piot list and contract by the east pilots will now be repeated by the west pilots. They have been planning their legal battle for some time and it will be at least another 2 or 3 years before it is resolve.
ALPA is far from perfect and at times marginal. But they are the best available.
To make matters worst, the 2-3 years of delays toward a single piot list and contract by the east pilots will now be repeated by the west pilots. They have been planning their legal battle for some time and it will be at least another 2 or 3 years before it is resolve.
ALPA is far from perfect and at times marginal. But they are the best available.
ALPA:
Necessary Evil
Huge Bank of Resources ($$$, Lawyers, Insurances, Etc)
Lacks Leadership
Very Divided Right Now
Necessary Evil
Huge Bank of Resources ($$$, Lawyers, Insurances, Etc)
Lacks Leadership
Very Divided Right Now
A4s said:
Catmando said:
HAL Pilot said:
And there you have it all distilled down for you from 4 airline pilots, my knee-jerk pro-management/anti-union friends and neighbors who are on the outside lookin' in ...Boom Boom said:
... do you see a pattern here??? ALPA was created as a result of predatory airline owner/management demanding pilots do unsafe and unnecessary things to service the corporate bottom line. Without predatory management "teams", ALPA would not be necessary.
Unfortunately, when that happens, pigs (as well as airliners) will fly ...
ALPA & the Airline Pilot: can't live with 'em; can't live without 'em ...
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
So ALPA ~= Women?
USAir leaving ALPA; another sign of the Apocalypse. My experience with USAir goes back to the !977/1980 timeframe when I was an Allegheny Commuter pilot flying Beech 99s,Twin Otters and M298s. We fed the Mainline into Pitt, Harrisburg and DCA from Johnstown,Altoona and Philipsburg. We worked for contractors and were not USAir employees but used their facilities and ground personnel at PIT and DCA. The concept was quite simple; you couldn't make money flying a Convair 580 with just a few people into JST,AOO or PSB but the contractor and Mr. Colodny could using Beech 99s. For the uninformed a Beech 99 is a stretched, unpressurized King Air with 15 seats. Ours had no autopilot, no yaw dampeners,no flight directors and no prop syncs. It was a good instrument platform, carried a good load of ice and did well in crosswinds. All necessary attributes in our neck of the woods.
We were non union and were treated OK if you were there to build experience, and didn't screw up, but it wasn't the final stop if you were looking for a career. If you had a concern and went to the Chief Pilot, and he took offense, he kept a stack of resumes behind his desk and would hand them to you and say "pick your replacement." If there was a class of six scheduled and seven showed up, somebody was walking the plank, and not a whole lot could be done about it other than get liquored up and move on. You, as a new hire FO, loaded the carry ons, took the tickets, and flew about 90 hours a month for 647 dollars a month. Thank God for the Army National Guard.
The mainline USAir pilots had a different set of circumstances. They were coming out of the Allegheny years, were expanding, going all jets and making lots of money. They were noted as a pilots airline, more specifically a Captain's airline, and life was good. Even though they flew narrow bodies,mainly in the Northeast, they made the big bucks but they flew a heavy line. The Captains weren't to be trifled with and if they decided to serve free drinks to the passengers because they were running late and the company said not to, the free drinks got served and that was that because he was the Captain. None of this "it's coming out of your paycheck" stuff.
The pilot group was fiercely pro ALPA and it paid big dividends for them. Everyone at the commuter level wanted to get on the mainline but there was no flow through agreement and USAir wouldn't engage in predatory hiring and they had tons of highly qualified applicants beating down their door. Despite multiple phone calls, endless grovelings and serial killing of trees I never got the call up and moved on. I should insert here that I highly respected the mainline guys. Doing a night circling approach off the ILS into Philipsburg loaded with ice, in turbulence, below the mountain top, facing the mountain,not seeing the mountain, while you intermittently lost sight of the airport in snow squalls put the pucker factor at 10 in a Beech 99; it must have been a real attention getter in a 580, so these guys deserved respect.
USAirs Achilles heel was that they treated their customers like red headed step children. They had a grip on their marketplace and if you wanted to get from here to there it was either US or take the bus. I remember a PSR telling me that he was sick of passengers complaining about the stewardesses; everyone knew they were nasty and the customers should shut up and deal with it. In a rare bit of insight I asked if they weren't worried about what would happen if they ever faced competition. He said we'll just crank up the Pittsburgh money machine and that'll take care of that.
After I left I lost contact my window seat to the operation but I knew the Piedmont and PSA acquisitions weren't textbook. When PIT was lost I knew that wasn't good, and bankruptcy never bodes well for the employees. I remember being on the shuttle van in PHL with a senior USAir Captain who told me " I was flipping burgers before I got my USAir job, I never figured I'd have to go back to flipping them after I retired." An exaggeration I'm sure, but he wasn't happy.
I haven't followed the events that made the USAir pilot group split from the fold but it must have been pretty bad to make a group that was as pro ALPA as they were bolt. Hope they haven't set themselves for the old divide and conquer strategy.
We were non union and were treated OK if you were there to build experience, and didn't screw up, but it wasn't the final stop if you were looking for a career. If you had a concern and went to the Chief Pilot, and he took offense, he kept a stack of resumes behind his desk and would hand them to you and say "pick your replacement." If there was a class of six scheduled and seven showed up, somebody was walking the plank, and not a whole lot could be done about it other than get liquored up and move on. You, as a new hire FO, loaded the carry ons, took the tickets, and flew about 90 hours a month for 647 dollars a month. Thank God for the Army National Guard.
The mainline USAir pilots had a different set of circumstances. They were coming out of the Allegheny years, were expanding, going all jets and making lots of money. They were noted as a pilots airline, more specifically a Captain's airline, and life was good. Even though they flew narrow bodies,mainly in the Northeast, they made the big bucks but they flew a heavy line. The Captains weren't to be trifled with and if they decided to serve free drinks to the passengers because they were running late and the company said not to, the free drinks got served and that was that because he was the Captain. None of this "it's coming out of your paycheck" stuff.
The pilot group was fiercely pro ALPA and it paid big dividends for them. Everyone at the commuter level wanted to get on the mainline but there was no flow through agreement and USAir wouldn't engage in predatory hiring and they had tons of highly qualified applicants beating down their door. Despite multiple phone calls, endless grovelings and serial killing of trees I never got the call up and moved on. I should insert here that I highly respected the mainline guys. Doing a night circling approach off the ILS into Philipsburg loaded with ice, in turbulence, below the mountain top, facing the mountain,not seeing the mountain, while you intermittently lost sight of the airport in snow squalls put the pucker factor at 10 in a Beech 99; it must have been a real attention getter in a 580, so these guys deserved respect.
USAirs Achilles heel was that they treated their customers like red headed step children. They had a grip on their marketplace and if you wanted to get from here to there it was either US or take the bus. I remember a PSR telling me that he was sick of passengers complaining about the stewardesses; everyone knew they were nasty and the customers should shut up and deal with it. In a rare bit of insight I asked if they weren't worried about what would happen if they ever faced competition. He said we'll just crank up the Pittsburgh money machine and that'll take care of that.
After I left I lost contact my window seat to the operation but I knew the Piedmont and PSA acquisitions weren't textbook. When PIT was lost I knew that wasn't good, and bankruptcy never bodes well for the employees. I remember being on the shuttle van in PHL with a senior USAir Captain who told me " I was flipping burgers before I got my USAir job, I never figured I'd have to go back to flipping them after I retired." An exaggeration I'm sure, but he wasn't happy.
I haven't followed the events that made the USAir pilot group split from the fold but it must have been pretty bad to make a group that was as pro ALPA as they were bolt. Hope they haven't set themselves for the old divide and conquer strategy.