Unusual Vietnam MiG kills

[A4sForever]

NOTE: I don't seee a "history" forum, Vietnam or otherwise on this otherwise fine website, so I will put this here. I think some of you may want to read some "historical" things as they pertain to Naval Aviation. The history of Naval Aviation is where we all came from -- we follow in these fellows' contrails and footsteps ...

20-Jun-65: (shared kill) when four MIDWAY VA-25 SPADs engaged several MiGs over North Vietnam--LT Clint Johnson flying an A-1H SPAD got a MiG-17 while teamed with wingman LTjg Charlie Hartman in another A-1H (20mm Cannon). I guess someone forgot to tell these SPAD drivers they were not flying fighters?

09-Oct-66: (or 19? both dates are reported in different sources) VA-176 off the INTREPID--LT William Patton flying another A-1H got a MiG-17 in N. Vietnam (20mm Cannon). Four Frescos jumped four SPADs and probably wished they had stayed in bed that day. The final score for the SPADs was one kill, one probable, and one possible with no losses to themselves.

The guy on the right doing Aviator "talk" with his hands got the "possible" that day. His name is LT Pete Russell. Pete was KIA while flying an OV-10 for VAL-4 on 23 May 1969. His name is on panel 24W, line 090 on The Vietnam Memorial.

01-May-67: LCDR Theodore Swartz flying an A-4C with VA-76 off the BONNIE DICK got a MiG-17 while attacking Kep airfield in N. Vietnam---with 5" Zuni's of all things. He got a Silver Star and must have been a master improviser.

12-Jan-68: This one is quite unusual--a recorded instance of a "spook" CIA UH-1 Huey bagging an AN-2 in North Vietnam---the pilot is listed as "Unknown" (of course!!)...with "gunfire"--what kind is not documented--I suppose it could have been a shoulder weapon or a fixed-mount 7.62?)

Most of these unusual kills are mentioned in Lou Drendel's fine publication, ....."And Kill MIGs".

 

[Fly Navy]

Awesome!

Did the UH-1 have a door gunner? Though that'd be quite a strange attack plan. Then again, all these are.

 

[A4sForever]

Did the UH-1 have a door gunner? Though that'd be quite a strange attack plan. Then again, all these are.

Don't know ... the info has to be out there somewhere. Best guess -- M60 in the door. Not too many of the CIA "spook-slicks" had army-style UH-1 gunship armament. But that's just a guess .... Transport versions of the UH-1 were known as "Slicks" because of their uncluttered appearance. They were generally armed with M-60 machine guns on a flexible mount in one or both door(s) to provide covering fire for troops -- or in this case, SOG/CIA types. Or John Kerry .....

It wouldn't take too much to bring down an AN-2 -- get the pilot or the engine...

Specifications (An-2P) "Colt":
Engine: One 1,000-hp Shvetsov ASh-62IR radial piston engine
Weight: Empty 7605 lbs., Max Takeoff 12,125 lbs.
Wing Span: 59ft. 7.75in.(Upper), 46ft. 8.5in. (Lower).
Length: 41ft. 9.5in.
Height: 13ft. 1.5in.
Performance:
Maximum Speed at 5,700 ft: 160 mph
Economy Cruising Speed: 115 mph
Ceiling: 14,425 ft.
Range: 560 miles with 1,100-pound payload
Armament: None

 

[Fly Navy]

Wasn't the AN-2 made of wood? I remember seeing something on Discovery or whatever once about how Spetznaz liked a certain aircraft due to it's wood construction. Something about being less visible on radar. I thought it might have been the AN-2.

 

[A4sForever]

Made of wood? Got to be some wood in there somewhere besides in the F/O's head ....

The An-2's admittedly-antiquated design gave it extremely short take-off and landing (STOL) capabilities. This was partly achieved not only by the high-lift double wings, but by the use of the drooping ailerons which can be lowered 20 degrees to compliment the flaps. The wings are covered in fabric aft of the front spar and the tailplane is also covered with fabric, making field repairs easy. It nominally has a crew of two in a heated crew compartment and a single cargo/pax bay running the length of the aircraft.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Addendum:
I always considered the AN-2 "COLT" as kind of a middle-ground compromise between the Beaver and the Otter in terms of speed, range, payload, and utility.

 

[Banjo33]

So Lcdr Swartz bagged a Mig with rockets? Man, that's incredible! I've often done it while playing video games, but didn't think it possible in real life!

 

[A4sForever]

DISCLAIMER: I did not know the story of LCDR Ted Swartz had already been posted and/or discussed on another thread, another time. My belated apology to those amongst us who become incensed at transgressions such as these ....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The A-4 Skyhawk, as most here know, was one of the key aircraft in the Vietnam War. A4's were in action from the very start of the war and flew throughout the entire conflict. Their missions began with the (in)famous Gulf of Tonkin incident of August 3, 1964, in which aircraft from the USS Constellation and USS Ticonderoga attacked North Vietnamese torpedo boats and facilities, in retaliation for NV attacks, real or imagined, on the destroyers USS Maddox and USS Turner Joy the previous day. The "Scooters" kept the U.S. Navy in the airwar while sustaining about 60% of all Naval Air losses in Vietnam.

Someone in the other, earlier thread mentioned that LCDR Swartz was a former F8 driver -- I cannot verify that. I checked some resources, and found his name mentioned as the CO of VF-161 in the middle '70's flying F4N's on the Midway -- the "real dope" has got to be out there somewhere, I just don't know the details with certainty. If true, Swartz's career is quite the anomaly in Naval Aviation ... from Fighter (F8?)-to-Attack (A4 for sure)-to-Fighter (F4?) again ... a highly improbable journey. And very un-typical for the Navy tactical community, especially "in the day". But nothing is impossible, as I show him as having retired in the Poway area as a VF O-5, so the F4 part of the puzzle seems to fit.

VA-76 SPIRITS

VF-161 CHARGERS

 

[A4sForever]

THE FOLLOWING WAS EXTRACTED FROM THE SKYHAWK.ORG website:

On May 1, 1967, VA-76 "Spirit" A-4C Skyhawk, BuNo. 148609, side number NP-685, from USS Bon Homme Richard CVA-31, was piloted by Lieutenant Commander Ted "T.R." Swartz. "T.R." was about to make an air-to-ground Zuni and 20mm strafing attack on North Vietnam's Kep Airfield, north of Hanoi.

As "T.R." began his roll-in to attack the target, his wingman alerted him to a pair of enemy MiG-17 Fresco fighters, moving in to attack at Swartz's 6 o'clock position. The intrepid Skyhawk driver wanted nothing to do with THAT game, so he aborted his target run and pulled his aircraft into a defensive high "G" barrel roll. The unexpected maneuver caused the attacking MiGs to over-shoot and Swartz slid into their 6 o'clock position. Swartz fired a salvo of ZUNI rockets was amazed to see one of his ZUNIs hit one of the MiGs, which disintegrated in a ball of flame.

SCRATCH ONE MIG!
T.R. Swartz retured safely to Bon Homme Richard that day, his action marking the first, and only, shoot-down of an enemy aircraft by a Skyhawk during the Vietnam War.

The Experimantal Aircraft Association displays a very accurate replica of LCDR "T.R." Swartz's A-4C at Wittman Field, Oshkosh, Wisconsin. The flying Scooter replica is actually A-4B 142112, originally owned by the Combat Jets Flying Museum of Houston, Texas, it was flown on the airshow circuit for several years before being donated to the Experimental Aircraft Association about 1994.
********************************************************
My addendum to the above:

The ZUNI rocket, known as Zuni 5-inch FFAR (Folding-Fin Aircraft Rocket), was designed as a modular system, and allowed the use of different types of warhead and fuze. The Zuni traces its lineage from the 3.5" rocket of 1943 and is basically an airborne adaptation of the 5" Naval AA shell. Options included general-purpose and shaped-charged warheads, point-detonation, delayed-action and proximity fuzes. The latter option was intended for air-to-air application, but Zuni was almost exclusively used as an air-to-ground weapon. Although a number of different launchers were tested with Zuni, the rocket was eventually deployed primarily in four-tube pods of the LAU-10/A series.

IT'S A BIG WEAPON !!! Most variants weigh in @ 135 lb + . I had a pod malfunction allowing all four ZUNI's to fire in "ripple", instead of "single" -- basically meaning they all came off at once. Fortunately for me -- to stave off any embarassment certain to follow, I got a "good hit" --- a very good hit --- and with the target obscured by smoke and dust from the 4 impacting Zuni's -- the remainder of the division had to abort their runs as they couldn't see the target anymore. Magic ....

An A4 from VMA-324 "Devildogs" on the range at NAF Fallon.

 

[Flash]

My old squadron had 2 EP-3's back in the day that had an interesting previous life. All EP-3's are converted 'slick' P-3's, these two happened to be used by the agency located in Langley,VA (they were painted black when employed by them). These two aircraft were retired a few years before I got to the squadron but I heard a few stories from the older hands about them. One of them had its tail twisted and never flew quite right. Both of them had been given to the Navy with no maintenance records or any indication on how many hours they flew.

One of the rumors, which I later read about in The Age of Orion (an excellent book for P-3 fans), was that one of the P-3's had shot down a MiG over the PRC on one of its missions with a Sidewinder. Not a whole lot else than rumor to back that up at all.

As for unusual kills more recently, an EF-111 in the Gulf War got a 'rocks' kill by fliyng down to the deck with an Iraqi on his tail. The EF-111 made it but the Iraqi did not. The below is from Wikipedia, it is under the EF-111 section:

On 17 January 1991, a USAF EF-111 was credited with a kill against an Iraqi Dassault-Breguet Mirage F1, which it managed to maneuver into the ground, making it the first and only F-111 to achieve an aerial victory over another aircraft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-111

My Skipper who flew EF-111's on exchange during the war said that he was not sure the USAF ever officially credited the crew with a kill. The F-15 guys were trying to say they were painting the Mirage with radar and tried to claim the kill for themselves. Can't keep the Eagle drivers from getting all the glory :icon_smil.

 

[mpdonnelly]

born at the wrong time

I agree with the earlier post, their should be a history section. I used to volunteer at the aviation museum in P-cola.

I've always thought these were pretty good:

World's Altitude Record for Launching A Paper Airplane -Test vehicle placed in speed brake well, s.b. pumped shut before start. Boards opened at 50,125 feet indicated; 11 August 1966, F-8D BuNo 147069, between Eglin AFB & Cecil.

Cleanest Bomb Attack On Soviet Vessel - Med, about May 1967. 13 rolls toilet paper (unused) loaded into speed brake well (I liked that speed brake). Hard right off cat, gear up, opened boards over trawler maneuvering to force carrier to turn. No medal, but no hack either.

http://www.cloudnet.com/~djohnson/records.htm

 

[A4sForever]

F-111's ???

PLUS

EQUALS

 

[A4sForever]

Can't keep the Eagle drivers from getting all the glory :icon_smil.

Yeah, you can .... Those "(B)eagle" (sic) drivers from Air Force FWS @ Red Flag used to TRY to call 18 mile look-down "kills" on a maneuvering A-4 (us -- the NAS Dallas "Ranger" boys) against max+ ground clutter --- ain't no way, not back "in the day". And they ALWAYS got "disallowed" by the judges. The (B)eagles never quite lived up to their billing -- make no mistake, they were good -- just not as "good" as they thought they were. And absent a GCI assist to support them (AWACS today?), we hammered 'em. If we broke the ROE and actually acted like the "bad guys", we hammered 'em. All the while humming, " Old airframes, older bodies, keen eyes and better tactics "??

When we would beat them --- a regular occurrence, may I add --- they were directed by their CO to come in single plane, straight-in, with their "hook" down .... as in "dragging your tail behind you ...." :grumpy_12

When (B)eagle drivers look over their shoulder and see this ... the next thing they hear on tactical frequency is : "GUNS KILL" .....

 

[A4sForever]

Zuni's and Electical problems ...

This is a little off topic to the original theme of the thread. But since Zuni rockets evolved as a discussion topic on this thread I remembered what caused the flightdeck fire aboard USS Forrestal (CVA 59), on 29 July 1967. Right --- Zuni's and an electical short -- since I described a Zuni problem that I had (fortunately airborne) I thought some here might be interested in the Forrestal fire. Forrestal was operating off Vietnam at the time of the fire. I think this was her first line period on her first (ever) combat cruise -- but I could be wrong on those details -- going on "memory".

A Zuni rocket was accidentally launched on deck (due to an electrical problem), hitting a parked A-4, and igniting its drop tank. The fire then spread to other aircraft, and bombs began to explode on deck. The fire burned for 13 hours, killed 134 crew and caused the loss of 21 aircraft, some of which were pushed overboard before the fire reached them. 7 holes were blown in the flight deck from exploding bombs.

Repairs took 7 months, requiring complete removal and reconstruction of the aft section of the ship down to the deck plates in the hangar. This was the worst carrier fire in the postwar years. The ship has carried the nickname "Forrest Fire" ever since. Films shot during the fire are still shown to all ship-bound sailors and airmen in Fleet Fire Fighting Schools .

This is the official Navy site for a description of the fire, there are many others: The Forrestal Fire, 1050 hours (local) , 29 July, 1967

Even now, 37+ years later, it’s still appropriate for us to be proud of Forrestal’s crew, both ship’s company and air wing personnel.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As an aside: There are at least two differing opinions concerning which A-4 was struck by the Zuni rocket that originated from a F-4. The commonly accepted version is that John McCain's A-4 (#416) was struck by the Zuni rocket that started the fire. Very dramatic story ...

However, a according to the "Manual of the Judge Advocate General Basic Final Investigative Report Concerning the Fire on Board the USS Forrestal (CVA-59)", a 7,500 page report, "A review of the voluminous material contained in the Report of Investigation establishes the central fact that a ZUNI rocket was inadvertently fired from an F-4 aircraft (#110) and struck the external fuel tank of an A-4 aircraft (#405) of LCDR Fred White..." (note: LCDR White died that day -- A4s)

So there you have it: the two scenarios regarding the senior Senator from Arizona and his A-4 on 29 July, 1967.

 

[mpdonnelly]

I read Sailors to the End last Fall and it had a few interesting facts in the book that never made it into the official investigation.

1. The Forrestall was only on the line for three days before the fire occurred.

2. The CO was later promoted to Rear Admiral but found himself stationed in Iceland to finish out his career.

3. During the war it was a held belief that the sampans in the waters near yankee station were offered rewards for picking up downed pilots. About twenty-four sailors went over the side to escape the fire filled compartments on the Forrestall, all of whom were recovered by helos or the screening destroyers. One of the destoryers opened fire on a sampan with a twin five inch gun reducing it to splinters, the rest of the sampans quickly got the message.

I would have loved to see that. Speaking of the Forrestall, check this out:

 

[A4sForever]

Uh-OH ... Oh, my God ... now you've gone and done it with that thumbnail pix, flyingswo ....

all the guys on this site with the air conditioning on the front of the wings -- those big "fans" (I think they call them) --- will go positively NUTS over this picture. You have set us all back many, many generations ... :icon_wink