Trouble T and Non-Std Alternate symbols? (Instrument flying)

[kmac]

What is taught about the non-standard takeoff mins symbol? (i.e., the trouble T) What about the non-standard alternate symbol?

I remember being taught that the Navy pretty much ignores the Trouble T that since we have our own takeoff mins. However, there is a lot more under the Non-Standard Takeoff Mins section than just the mins. Likewise, we would ignore any of the 'A' symbols unless it was an 'A NA'.

Primary students/instructors, what is currently taught about the applicability of these symbols? I'm not talking about the book answer (see the attached image), but their applicability to naval aviation.

 

[miss1ng]

‘A’ symbols are ignored since we have specific alternate weather criteria per CNAF. Trouble T’s are always reviewed before shooting an approach, specifically if there’s an amended climb out instruction. Alternatively for unfamiliar fields (i.e. cross country flights), trouble T’s are definitely reviewed for ODPs and what not.

 

[kmac]

‘A’ symbols are ignored since we have specific alternate weather criteria per CNAF. Trouble T’s are always reviewed before shooting an approach, specifically if there’s an amended climb out instruction. Alternatively for unfamiliar fields (i.e. cross country flights), trouble T’s are definitely reviewed for ODPs and what not.

Thanks for the quick response.
-Do they teach that the A symbol could lead to a contingent A NA (such as “NA when control tower closed.”)?
-Why are Trouble Ts reviewed for a missed approach?

 

[miss1ng]

Thanks for the quick response.
-Do they teach that the A symbol could lead to a contingent A NA (such as “NA when control tower closed.”)?
-Why are Trouble Ts reviewed for a missed approach?

I believe the only time the A symbol applies to us is when it is an A NA, but otherwise I don't honestly remember ever diving deep into non-standard alternate minima, either in Advanced or Primary. I believe that's mostly due to being in a training environment and having default weather alternates in our SOP, so choosing an alternate has never really been emphasized much.

As for Trouble T's, it's more so applicable for touch & go's. But even then, our normal climb gradient is so high and a touch & go will have you rotating much earlier than a normal takeoff, so most times a Trouble T is no real factor. I believe in Multiengine Advanced we emphasize them more due to the possibility of an engine failure after takeoff leading to reduced climb out performance.

 

[ChuckMK23]

@kmac Here is the latest IFR Departure Procedures brief from the AFFSA schoolhouse - these slides are used in UPT and in regular AF recurrent instrument ground school ("Instrument Refresher Course"). Should contain what you are looking for. Posting for everyone's SA. Good content.

I just taught the Instrument Refresher to a bunch of active dutty folks. We discussed the growing importance in the face of climate change of thoroughly knowing your climb gradient capabilities both normal and OEI. Also when and where you are responsible for seeing and avoiding obstacles/terrain and your ability to do so even when its technically VFR. Also when an ODP conflicts with ATC instructions either from Tower or on release when departing from a non towered airport. Great stuff.

 

[kmac]

@miss1ng thanks for the explanation. One of the issues with alternates is that the FAA will publish what I call a contingent A NA. It will show up on a chart as a regular A but will include what otherwise is an A NA in the front matter of the FLIP/TPP book. Also, high procedures will not have an A symbol but their low counterparts might. It’s always good to check the front of the book when planning.

@ChuckMK23, those slides were very good. The fact that they mention TERPS, PANS OPS, and MIPS goes beyond what is typically taught in the Navy. There is quite a bit in the NATOPS IFM that is outdated.