TOP GUN Misunderstood

[pilot_man]

Apparently, NFWS now bears little resemblance to the original NKX NFWS, also known as unit III, Top Gun, and later TOPGUN.
Way back in the day:

• Only four F-4 crews went through as a class, and no others. … Two crews from the East Coast, two from the West Coast and only one from each squadron.
• Each squadron CO solely determined who the two individuals went whether they were already crewed together or not.
• The two guys the squadron sent always flew together during the course. Each squadron provided a dedicated aircraft and maintenance crew.
• While the GS subjects were as diverse as public speaking and Soviet history, the flying was strictly ACM (mostly BFM) and section, "loose deuce" tactics.
• Although F-4s were very good bombers, there was no Air-to-Ground training whatsoever.
• Nobody ever failed the course that I know of.

Remember that TOPGUN was established for a very specific and narrow purpose: To correct the dismal kill ratio F-4s had in the air war over North Vietnam against Soviet MiGs. Indeed the school accomplished that mission superbly and made history!

View attachment 12360​

While it may not resemble the TOPGUN of 1969, I would say the evolution is probably a good thing. The purpose is to create SFTIs and tactics for the fleet, so the subjects and training need to be as well rounded as the capabilities of the F/A-18. Both the selection and completion criteria have become more difficult and that's probably a good thing as well. Since we've been in a ground war for the last 12 years or so it has become more and more important for air to mud training.
No it's not the TOPGUN that you remember, but nothing in the Navy is anymore.

 

[Renegade One]

While it may not resemble the TOPGUN of 1969, I would say the evolution is probably a good thing. ...No it's not the TOPGUN that you remember, but nothing in the Navy is anymore.

Shack. Don't think anyone was trying to say "our day was better"…it just was what it was…for the reasons exigent at the time…and roger the rest. I do ponder the shift of focus to air-to-mud training, however...

 

[Gatordev]

It is just another shore tour job you can get and/or request. No rushing required as far as I have seen. VFC =/= NSAWC or TOP GUN, though obviously VFC-Fallon works with them a lot.

If that's true, then why do they hold Pilot Selection Boards? Or have a healthy amount of Reserve funding? Are they AC/RC integrated (like -84/-85)? My understanding was that places like the guys at Key West were all TAR/SELRES, but perhaps they've added additional billets.

 

[Catmando]

TOPGUN Trivia PS:

After the original NFWS achieved its initial and very narrow purpose - training F-4 pilots to kill MiGs over North Vietnam - and when the War ended, the schools mission naturally expanded and changed accordingly.

In fact although the original NFWS was geared primarily for F-4 pilots rather than RIOs in ACM, after the Vietnam War another NFWS course/school was added: TOPSCOPE. This course was geared primarily for F-14 RIOs.
[Note: These classes were much larger than the class of 8 I attended 5 years earlier.]

 

[Schnugg]

I went through in '90 at NKX. Never got a TopScope patch, but that's cool.

 

[UMichfly]

I went through in '90 at NKX. Never got a TopScope patch, but that's cool.

Did you at least get your 4 color pen of judgment that you could use to crush the souls of SFWT candidates with a flick of your wrist?

 

[MIDNJAC]

If that's true, then why do they hold Pilot Selection Boards? Or have a healthy amount of Reserve funding? Are they AC/RC integrated (like -84/-85)? My understanding was that places like the guys at Key West were all TAR/SELRES, but perhaps they've added additional billets.

I guess I took the original question to be wrt active duty JO's going there.....not that it was, but that is what I was responding to. And for the active duty JO types that go to those places, it is the same process as going to the FRS, or T-45's, etc. There very well could be the same thing you describe for the TAR/SELRES folk though. There aren't a lot of active folks there, but there are enough that it is a place you can reasonably go after your JO tour.

 

[Renegade One]

TOPGUN Trivia PS:

After the original NFWS achieved its initial and very narrow purpose - training F-4 pilots to kill MiGs over North Vietnam - and when the War ended, the schools mission naturally expanded and changed accordingly.

In fact although the original NFWS was geared primarily for F-4 pilots rather than RIOs in ACM, after the Vietnam War another NFWS course/school was added: TOPSCOPE. This course was geared primarily for F-14 RIOs.

Thanks for the "shout out" for TOPSCOPE. Your humble servant was one of the plank owner "original cadre" of Instructors for that new course of instruction. Several of us F-4/F-14 RIOs were "seconded" (pulled TAD) to NFWS to handle the entirely new series of classroom instruction and multiple simulator periods required. I was an F-4 SME at the time, TAD from VF-121. But there always were a lot of F-4 aircrew and F-14 pilots in the classes as well…we were plowing new real estate and developing new FAD/MAS tactics at a time when that seemed to be "the new imperative". We appreciated that "it takes two hands to handle a Whopper".

A dozen or so years later…the Berlin Wall came down. Coincidence? I think not…

 

[Gatordev]

I guess I took the original question to be wrt active duty JO's going there.....not that it was, but that is what I was responding to. And for the active duty JO types that go to those places, it is the same process as going to the FRS, or T-45's, etc. There very well could be the same thing you describe for the TAR/SELRES folk though. There aren't a lot of active folks there, but there are enough that it is a place you can reasonably go after your JO tour.

That's basically what I was asking (and you answered). I was under the impression that not ALL the VFCs were integrated, ie some are Reserve only, but I wasn't sure if any were integrated. They have their own Wing and "circle of trust," so I'm not as plugged into their manning/funding like I am with Helo and TRACOM (and to a small extent, VR).

 

[jmcquate]

I guess I took the original question to be wrt active duty JO's going there.....not that it was, but that is what I was responding to. And for the active duty JO types that go to those places, it is the same process as going to the FRS, or T-45's, etc. There very well could be the same thing you describe for the TAR/SELRES folk though. There aren't a lot of active folks there, but there are enough that it is a place you can reasonably go after your JO tour.

Ya, my question was about active duty (should have been more clear). I think the Saints are active and the Omars and Sundowners are reserve. I think the Marine squadron is reserve also.

 

[MIDNJAC]

All I know is that a Navy JO could go to any of them with the exception of -401 (Yuma). Pretty sure there are a couple active gigs with VFA-204 down in NOLA as well. It is very common (or at least was in my timeframe a couple years ago) for Marine RAG grads to go to the Cowboys in DFW for a few months of TAD while the MAG decided where to send them

 

[Catmando]

Thanks for the "shout out" for TOPSCOPE. Your humble servant was one of the plank owner "original cadre" of Instructors for that new course of instruction. ...

IIRC, "humility" was as scarce as hen's teeth for anyone involved with NFWS... (and rightly so).

 

[Renegade One]

IIRC, "humility" was as scarce as hen's teeth for anyone involved with NFWS... (and rightly so).

"It ain't bragging if you've done it."

 

[Old R.O.]

TOPGUN Trivia PS:

After the original NFWS achieved its initial and very narrow purpose - training F-4 pilots to kill MiGs over North Vietnam - and when the War ended, the schools mission naturally expanded and changed accordingly.

In fact although the original NFWS was geared primarily for F-4 pilots rather than RIOs in ACM, after the Vietnam War another NFWS course/school was added: TOPSCOPE. This course was geared primarily for F-14 RIOs.
[Note: These classes were much larger than the class of 8 I attended 5 years earlier.]

View attachment 12365View attachment 12366

A blast from the past. Was in a fleet squadron with a couple of those guys, and later in the Reserves with a couple more. One of the guys "bought it" a couple of years later in the back seat of a VF-121 Phantom off San Clemente Island during FCLPs. He was to report to Pensacola in a couple of months for NFO to Pilot transition.