The Warrants have arrived

[Uncle Fester]

The Warrants I saw come through p'cola when I instructed weren't performing any differently than the Ensigns with similar backgrounds, which is to say, bell curve. Maybe a little more afraid of failure, as attrition before wings would mean losing their khakis. A bit of fear of failure is a good thing in the Program, as long as it's not pathological. I saw too many priors come to grief because they treated the Program as just another bullshit Navy school.

Only issue I have with how they're selecting them is the requirement for an associate's. Associate's degrees don't mean shit, and it's sort of an unnecessary, meaningless filter.

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[picklesuit]

You know what, Stan, if you want me to wear 37 pieces of flair, like your pretty boy over there, Brian, why don't you just make the minimum 37 pieces of flair?

 

[Flash]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but flying CWOs just go to knife and fork school, right?

Yes. The LDO/CWO course in Rhode Island.

I think that is a flaw in the transition from E to CWO for these guys, they are a bit more junior than the rest of the 'regular' classmates and I think could benefit from going to a more 'traditional' OCS.

 

[MasterBates]

From the few I ran across (I was in E-2s by the time they hit the fleet, but saw them in TRACOM) I think an OCS would do wonders.

I was roommates with an ETC(SS) who had to go to OCS to be RL. Since these Warrants are essentially in Line Officer billets, why don't they? OCS is relatively cheap compared to flight school.

 

[Brett327]

I think that is a flaw in the transition from E to CWO for these guys, they are a bit more junior than the rest of the 'regular' classmates and I think could benefit from going to a more 'traditional' OCS.

Agreed. OCS did me a lot of good, going through as a first class. It changed me in many good ways.

 

[Jim123]

I see pluses and minuses to that.

The prior-Es I remember from OCS ranged from some really great dudes to others who... had very high opinions of themselves. The former group tended to bring everybody up. The latter group probably had chips on their shoulders before they joined the Navy in the first place, but those ones tainted it for us non-priors. In the end we all survived.

When I was a candidate and an ENS/JG that I remember a few guys, whose handful of years of experience as the command rockstar made them self-anointed experts on all things in the "fleet" (all coasts, ships, squadrons, sea/shore commands). As a college student, I remember a few guys with strong GPAs, a great co-op experience, and a couple summer jobs who were suddenly experts on all things "industry." It's a personality thing and not necessarily the Navy's fault or the individuals' commands who endorsed their packages. Maybe the selection process could probably work a little better to better screen knuckleheads like that, but then again most of us go through this phase at some point in our lives.

 

[Flash]

I see pluses and minuses to that.

The prior-Es I remember from OCS ranged from some really great dudes to others who... had very high opinions of themselves. The former group tended to bring everybody up. The latter group probably had chips on their shoulders before they joined the Navy in the first place, but those ones tainted it for us non-priors. In the end we all survived......

As an outsider who only saw the products of OCS and the LDO/CWO schools I think that OCS is a better starting point of a former enlisted personnel who are more junior. The folks the Navy sends to LDO/CWO school have significant experience in the fleet before they go and are generally considered experts in their fields, the flying CWOs leave from the school and enter flight school as just another flight student. OCS would better prepare them for that experience of being the low man/woman on the totem pole again.

 

[Uncle Fester]

That kind of brings up one of the problems with the FWO program...it's structured more like the Army, but we're Inducting and indoctrinating them like all our "regular" warrants (i.e., very senior technical specialists). We're taking in far too few to justify a WOCS, but why can't we send them to regular OCS? We're expecting them to be professional peers with ensigns, might be an idea to indoctrinate them alongside ensigns.

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[Brett327]

That kind of brings up one of the problems with the FWO program...it's structured more like the Army, but we're Inducting and indoctrinating them like all our "regular" warrants (i.e., very senior technical specialists). We're taking in far too few to justify a WOCS, but why can't we send them to regular OCS? We're expecting them to be professional peers with ensigns, might be an idea to indoctrinate them alongside ensigns.

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They should run it like the legacy STA program I was a part of. All the selectees were URL designators and we went to OCS, just like our contemporaries off the street. Most of us were E5-E6, and we didn't have degrees, just like the FWOs. Probably OBE at this point, but it's food for thought.

Any sense as to the longevity of the FWO program? Do the numbers that people are seeing in fleet squadrons even have a chance to affect the DH selection rate of their URL cohorts down the line (as was the original intent of the program)? My guess is no.

 

[robav8r]

As a 15 year prior E, the whole "chip on your shoulder" label can be played both ways. Some of the most arrogant, pompous Officers I have ever encountered in my career have been Naval Academy graduates. And, I have seen more than my share of the "I earned my commission the hard way, I earned it!" crowd in the LDO/CWO community who believe they are the reincarnation of Jesus himself. My own experience has shown that the very best wardrooms are the ones with a diverse group of Officers that come from a variety of commissioning sources. I agree that the Flying WO program "may" be flawed in that we send them directly to Knife & Fork school, sometimes with very little leadership experience and then expect the rest of the Navy to treat them like traditional CWO's, a community of leaders that have, I believe, much more experience and proven leadership skill. In my last squadron, I had an experience with a Flying WO NFO who, in my opinion, did not measure up. Nice guy and all, but lacked the professionalism and leadership we all expected from folks coming out of this program. I have heard from others that the WO pilots are doing very well and I certainly hope that continues to be the case. For me, having the opportunity to commission and go to flight school was an incredible opportunity which I am very thankful for. I hope we can continue to embrace programs that capitalize on the skill & experience of our enlisted force by providing them with Officer/Flying opportunities. I also hope we continue to embrace opportunities for folks who have little to no desire for a traditional career path who just want to stay in the cockpit.

 

[RobLyman]

New Flying Warrant: I don't want nobody calling me ''son'' or ''kid'' or ''sport.'' Cool?
Warrant Mafia Member: Whatever you say, slick. But I need to tell you something about all your skills. As of right now...
As of right now...
they mean precisely...
dick.

 

[Lawman]

That kind of brings up one of the problems with the FWO program...it's structured more like the Army, but we're Inducting and indoctrinating them like all our "regular" warrants (i.e., very senior technical specialists). We're taking in far too few to justify a WOCS, but why can't we send them to regular OCS? We're expecting them to be professional peers with ensigns, might be an idea to indoctrinate them alongside ensigns.

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See that's the problem, they aren't peers with ensigns if your working off the Army model.

A Lt is not my peer in a line company. He/she is a platoon leader, where as I am a technical/tactical expert. The only time we are ever peers is in flight school and even that is limited. Remember there are only 3-4 commission guys in a line company in the Army and one of them is the commander (a senior captain). Everybody else, whether your Stan's pilots or maintenance pilots or just new guys from flight school are warrants.

 

[Uncle Fester]

I meant the Army model of relatively junior guys getting trained to be aviators, as opposed to the senior technical expert Warrant the Navy is used to. Navy FWOs are going to be permanent JOs, and given how a navy squadron is organized, they'll be the equivalent of a super-JO WTI type.

 

[Recovering LSO]

Because tailhook communities are not as heavy with JOs. P-3s have 5 officers on them... that means there is less chance of going up the chain and getting command of a squadron vice a single seat hornet squadron.

If the tailhook communities are so heavy then why was the DH screen board for VFA so brutal? HS community had a much higher screen rate than VFA.

It's all (mostly) about the airlines man - retention is high, guys are sticking around so screen rates are lower - simple.

I know a few of our C and E brothers can attest to this, but do the rest of you guys know what the workload in one their squadrons is like? There are typically 13-16 pilots (depending on whether its a C or E) squadron. The same amount of work (i.e., shitty ground jobs) must get done. Yes, there are a couple of ground pounders, but that only helps so much. I'm NOT suggesting that the FWO should be extended to the Tac-Air communities, but it's worth a little perspective.