The SHOW: Airlines still a "good gig"??

[sevenhelmet]

I was the one who asked A4s what the BFD was. He regularly shit on military flying as if landing on a boat or in a brownout LZ was somehow lesser than flying from Chicago to DC. He would assert that military pilots were fools for not going to what he would call “the SHOW.” His caps, not mine.

He still couldn’t explain what was so special about airline flying. It’s a job. An important job, yes, but certainly not the pinnacle of aviation accomplishment.

He was, and is, an arrogant dick.

Airlines are the pinnacle for many people, but I agree with you. I have found the arrogance in the community to be off-putting on more than one occasion.

The worst offender was the guy who worked for a popular application review service. We were going through my record and he saw my matrix of types/hours and says “Is that all? I thought you were a test pilot! The board will wonder why there aren’t more airplanes on this list.” (I had 38 airplanes listed). He also insisted that no amount of hours the squadron would give me on deployment was good enough, I had to get more, somehow. (As if asking the skipper for more hours or something was an option.)

It was a very strange record review, particularly since this guy was prior military. I came away thinking no amount of work on my part would ever impress an airline.

 

[Griz882]

Airlines are the pinnacle for many people, but I agree with you. I have found the arrogance in the community to be off-putting on more than one occasion.

The worst offender was the guy who worked for a popular application review service. We were going through my record and he saw my matrix of types/hours and says “Is that all? I thought you were a test pilot! The board will wonder why there aren’t more airplanes on this list.” (I had 38 airplanes listed). He also insisted that no amount of hours the squadron would give me on deployment was good enough, I had to get more, somehow. (As if asking the skipper for more hours or something was an option.)

It was a very strange record review, particularly since this guy was prior military. I came away thinking no amount of work on my part would ever impress an airline.

Back in the 1960’s the airlines used to send my dad job offers via the mail (I specifically remember a colorful Braniff letterhead) but he never took the bait. My mom thought it would be glamorous job but my dad always said “If I’m going to be a bus driver I’ll work for Greyhound.”

 

[sevenhelmet]

Back in the 1960’s the airlines used to send my dad job offers via the mail (I specifically remember a colorful Braniff letterhead) but he never took the bait. My mom thought it would be glamorous job but my dad always said “If I’m going to be a bus driver I’ll work for Greyhound.”

I will add that my actual experience with airline interviews was much more positive. I think the prep guy was being a dick in order to get me as ready as possible. I just didn’t agree with his methods, or some of his conclusions about my work history.

Then the pandemic hit, and my CJO became meaningless. I took my life in another direction, and have no regrets.

My friends who fly for the majors all say it’s incredibly dull work. What they like is the deterministic nature of the pay scale and numbers, and the free time it gives them when they’re home.

 

[phrogdriver]

I will add that my actual experience with airline interviews was much more positive. I think the prep guy was being a dick in order to get me as ready as possible. I just didn’t agree with his methods, or some of his conclusions about my work history.

Then the pandemic hit, and my CJO became meaningless. I took my life in another direction, and have no regrets.

My friends who fly for the majors all say it’s incredibly dull work. What they like is the deterministic nature of the pay scale and numbers, and the free time it gives them when they’re home.

Exactly. No one flies airliners for the chance to “slip the surly bonds of earth” or to “reach out and touch the face of God.” It’s not the love of flying. It pays like mid-to-higher level management position with nowhere near as much work. It won’t get your creative juices flowing or give an adrenaline rush, but it will give you enough free time for a sideline that does.

I have no issue with that. Just don’t talk like you’re Chuck F’ing Yeager.

I deliberately chose a flying job with more adrenaline (police flying in Baltimore), instead of that because 1) I thought I still needed to be the Action Jackson cool guy and 2) Tiltrotor time wasn’t as transferable as today—i.e. I’d have had to spend time in RJs. It wasn’t the life I really needed. I moved to a business position and have really enjoyed doing something very different than flying, though I am still in the industry.

Today, would I do airlines? No idea. If things were different, they wouldn’t be the same.

 

[sevenhelmet]

It won’t get your creative juices flowing or give an adrenaline rush, but it will give you enough free time for a sideline that does.

I have no issue with that. Just don’t talk like you’re Chuck F’ing Yeager.

Agreed. I think for some, it’s a coping mechanism to overstate the safety and special trust & confidence aspects of the job. It’s important, but the flying is mostly button pushing and good professional judgment.

I deliberately chose a flying job with more adrenaline (police flying in Baltimore), instead of that because 1) I thought I still needed to be the Action Jackson cool guy and 2) Tiltrotor time wasn’t as transferable as today—i.e. I’d have had to spend time in RJs. It wasn’t the life I really needed. I moved to a business position and have really enjoyed doing something very different than flying, though I am still in the industry.

I’m lucky enough to be in a flying position in industry that pays better than airlines (for the first few years anyway), but is admittedly far more work. Having said that, I enjoy it (most of the time) and the flying is really interesting (nearly all the time). I’m also home most evenings, and I get to fly trips often enough to keep things interesting. I won’t retire with 29,000 hours, but I’ll likely retire with 5-6,000 really unique hours in a wide variety of airplanes.

I’m happy with my choice, it’s the best of all buckets for me.

Today, would I do airlines? No idea. If things were different, they wouldn’t be the same.

Personally, I don’t think I would. In hindsight, I’m happier getting away from the rat-race aspect, having to pay my dues all over again, and being at the whims of a mercurial industry (which is what barred me from airlines to begin with). I have a lot of respect for my friends at various airlines, but from the perspective of my current job, it just doesn’t look all that attractive. I’d do it to pay the mortgage, but I don’t know how much I’d enjoy it, having seen the grass behind a few other fences.

 

[wink]

I was the one who asked A4s what the BFD was. He regularly shit on military flying as if landing on a boat or in a brownout LZ was somehow lesser than flying from Chicago to DC. He would assert that military pilots were fools for not going to what he would call “the SHOW.” His caps, not mine.

He still couldn’t explain what was so special about airline flying. It’s a job. An important job, yes, but certainly not the pinnacle of aviation accomplishment.

He was, and is, an arrogant dick.

Think you are getting HAL and A4s confused a bit. I don't recall A4s ever shitting on military flying. He was proud as hell of his Navy career and shared many boat flying stories. Oh, he did promote the airlines, to excess in my view. But he did not demean military flying.

 

[MIDNJAC]

I don’t think HAL would shit on military flying either. But he did have a very unique road to the left seat of WB jets.....or even the 2nd or 3rd seat. Both of those guys either are, or were the guys with the QOL and pay that you read about. I’d tell everyone i knew, children and pets included, to join the show if i were them (or i presume you too wink)

 

[wink]

I don’t think HAL would shit on military flying either. But he did have a very unique road to the left seat of WB jets.....or even the 2nd or 3rd seat. Both of those guys either are, or were the guys with the QOL and pay that you read about. I’d tell everyone i knew, children and pets included, to join the show if i were them (or i presume you too wink)

Actually, no. Part of it was (big picture) selfish. If someone was obviously suited for the military and happy, I would not offer an opinion. I'd rather they stayed in the military. Someone has to do it. Even as a teacher and mentor in a High School aviation program, I don't unilaterally promote The Show. I make sure they know about time away from home, the tyranny of seniority, the possibility you hitch your horse to a future Eastern or Pan Am, endless hours in cruise, etc.

The airlines were good for me. But if I had to go from a military cockpit straight to The Show, it would have been a drag. Flying in the Reserves and law enforcement provided excitement and purpose I did not get from the airline. I loved that my career included NFO and I still got to pilot the big silver jets. But aside from the cash and monthly flexibility in schedule, I could have been as happy in any number of other flying jobs. I am sure that includes many separating JOs and wannabe civilians.

 

[MIDNJAC]

FWIW, i agree Wink. Like anything, there are pros and cons. And I have also been fortunate enough to keep flying in the reserves, which softens the blow.

 

[phrogdriver]

Think you are getting HAL and A4s confused a bit. I don't recall A4s ever shitting on military flying. He was proud as hell of his Navy career and shared many boat flying stories. Oh, he did promote the airlines, to excess in my view. But he did not demean military flying.

Eeeh…when you recurrently and enthusiastically say “GO TO THE SHOW!” (Direct quote) I’d take it as discouraging continued military service. I distinctly remember many threads when both portrayed staying military as a fool’s choice, and a distinctly less worthy one, than commercial aviation.

A4s has marginally more dignity than HAL, but both of them have completely skewed views of aviation, among a lot of other things.

 

[SynixMan]

Regardless of bombastic former members of this site, “The Show” feeling when you get the call for the job you really wanted is real. I don’t dunk on people who choose other post-service employment, there’s lots of paths out there and people have to make their own decisions. (I do dunk people who take the bonus and marry themselves to the service, and in the process take everything the man shoves down their throat for the pension)

I’d argue if you can handle some of the downsides (time away from home being high up there), you won’t find a better mix of pay, retirement bennies, time off, and location flexibility. Most of us need a job after the military. This is a decent option with very high upside potential.

 

[jarhead]

I've been in "the show" for almost eight years now after spending 20 years in the Corps where I flew T-45s and F/A-18s for 13 of those years. The flying part while I was in the Marines was awesome; it was my "crack" that justified all the bullshit when I wasn't flying. IMO "the show" isn't the pinnacle of aviation but for me it's a great post-mil retirement job. Everyone is different but for me quality of life is important in a job and if I can make a lot of money doing it, it's even better. "The show" flying is boring. Ground ops at a major airport can be busy but cruise is generally boring, as it should be.

I want neither of my teenage kids in the military. My daughter is 16 and wants to fly. She is taking private lessons and if things stay the way they are, she could possibly be with a major airline in 8-10 years. My current advice to anyone in their 20's looking to either fly the airlines or the military, I say go to the airlines first. Once you have your seniority number in "the show", rush an AF guard unit. Then drop "mil leave" if you get into a guard unit.

For those looking to bail after their mil contract ... similar advice, get your seniority number at a major airline but stay in the reserves. (I went through initial training at UAL with a guy who, as soon as he finished his IOE, dropped mil leave and has been flying F-16s since. He hasn't flown for UAL in almost 8 years but still has his seniority number).

- I'm still a fairly senior narrowbody FO even though I could make lots more money being a junior wide body FO or a super junior captain in my base (at the cost of shittier flying skeds.)
- I drive to work and fly a dozen or so out and backs a month with my weekends and holidays off. I might pick up a two day trip if the layover is good.
- I generally have 15-18 days off a month.
- I (currently) make roughly $225,000 a year + my mil retirement and Tricare
- Though I know his first name I've never met my boss (the chief pilot in my base) nor do I know what he looks like.
- In nearly eight years here I have received maybe a handful of emails that were actually sent to me that required a response.
- I don't get calls when I'm off duty. If the company does call, it goes to my voicemail and I can decide to listen and call back or not.
- I show up to work when I'm sked, fly my trip and go home. Pretty low stress. Worse part of "the show", for me, is the drive to and from the airport.

S/F

 

[zippy]

I had zero ambitions of being an airline pilot until I reached that point in life where family and quality of life became more important to me than work. I’m a max $/effort type. I live in base, get paid 6 figures to work at an airport about 4-6 days a month. Being in base when i’m on call I can still accomplish what I want to do with my day aside from drinking. If I could figure out a way to work less and get paid more, I’d probably go for it. I don’t care about what I fly, where I fly etc. and only check emails on days I go to work. There are all types at the airlines and there’s something here for most people.

 

[MGoBrew11]

I've been in "the show" for almost eight years now after spending 20 years in the Corps where I flew T-45s and F/A-18s for 13 of those years. The flying part while I was in the Marines was awesome; it was my "crack" that justified all the bullshit when I wasn't flying. IMO "the show" isn't the pinnacle of aviation but for me it's a great post-mil retirement job. Everyone is different but for me quality of life is important in a job and if I can make a lot of money doing it, it's even better. "The show" flying is boring. Ground ops at a major airport can be busy but cruise is generally boring, as it should be.

I want neither of my teenage kids in the military. My daughter is 16 and wants to fly. She is taking private lessons and if things stay the way they are, she could possibly be with a major airline in 8-10 years. My current advice to anyone in their 20's looking to either fly the airlines or the military, I say go to the airlines first. Once you have your seniority number in "the show", rush an AF guard unit. Then drop "mil leave" if you get into a guard unit.

For those looking to bail after their mil contract ... similar advice, get your seniority number at a major airline but stay in the reserves. (I went through initial training at UAL with a guy who, as soon as he finished his IOE, dropped mil leave and has been flying F-16s since. He hasn't flown for UAL in almost 8 years but still has his seniority number).

- I'm still a fairly senior narrowbody FO even though I could make lots more money being a junior wide body FO or a super junior captain in my base (at the cost of shittier flying skeds.)
- I drive to work and fly a dozen or so out and backs a month with my weekends and holidays off. I might pick up a two day trip if the layover is good.
- I generally have 15-18 days off a month.
- I (currently) make roughly $225,000 a year + my mil retirement and Tricare
- Though I know his first name I've never met my boss (the chief pilot in my base) nor do I know what he looks like.
- In nearly eight years here I have received maybe a handful of emails that were actually sent to me that required a response.
- I don't get calls when I'm off duty. If the company does call, it goes to my voicemail and I can decide to listen and call back or not.
- I show up to work when I'm sked, fly my trip and go home. Pretty low stress. Worse part of "the show", for me, is the drive to and from the airport.

S/F

Now THAT is a good deal. Outlines like that make airlines very enticing. My biggest hangup is time away from home but if you can basically do a bunch of out and ins….

 

[MIDNJAC]

It also takes a while to get to the QOL that jarhead is speaking of. Maybe a little less time these days, but still a little while. I’m at the end of year 1, work generally 2/4 weekends of the month, have about 12 or so days off.....at least on my baseline schedule. As a third job, the money isn’t bad by any means, it certainly is a beer/random purchase fund. That will change in a couple months here, pretty significantly. But the schedules or premium trips wont be the stories you hear for at least a while longer. Being able to reset and go do navy for a week or three is a huge benefit. It isn’t for everyone (just as the airlines aren’t), but if you are thinking about airlines, you would serve yourself well to be thinking about the reserves too.