Again a better paying government job...
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The SHOW: Airlines still a "good gig"??
- Thread starter A4sForever
- Start date
ALPA is not a union in the traditional sense. It is more of an umbrella association that provides services to the individual pilot groups. Think of it as JOPA with its own lawyers, financial wizards, flight quacks, safety pros and insurance salesmen. Plus the protection of labor laws give a union. No work cards or baseball bats.
...but it is, or rather its subordinate groups maybe, an organization that negotiates salaries, benefits, and work conditions on behalf of its members, right? It represents pilots in disputes with management? And if it can't reach agreement with the employer, it can organize a strike?
Not making a positive or negative statement here, but doesn't that pretty much describe a union? They don't all break legs.
As phrodriver said earlier, it is interesting to see most generally anti-union guys come out of the military, and before long become airline pilot union activists. Many in fact ultimately become involved in union leadership. I know a number of active naval reservists who at the same time were Executive Vice Presidents of ALPA at the national level, including one admiral.
There is a real reason why airline pilots are so heavily unionized.... ever since military pilots became mail carriers in the 1930s. And when things really come to a rare head, there is a reason why former military aviators are most often involved in the planning, command, and control of union operations.
Pilots' unions provide a wide variety of assistance and benefits, not only for their members, but also to their airlines. Most benefits are unknown to outsiders. And some are even unknown by members until suddenly needed, - and then they are priceless!
There is a real reason why airline pilots are so heavily unionized.... ever since military pilots became mail carriers in the 1930s. And when things really come to a rare head, there is a reason why former military aviators are most often involved in the planning, command, and control of union operations.
Pilots' unions provide a wide variety of assistance and benefits, not only for their members, but also to their airlines. Most benefits are unknown to outsiders. And some are even unknown by members until suddenly needed, - and then they are priceless!
I'm one of those generally anti-union types. I see them as being counter to the interest of the members and the company, and only looking out for themselves and their own interests.
I work for a private company. I'm on salary, sometimes I work more than 80 hours per pay period with no overtime. I also have the latitude to work 12 hours on Weds and Thurs and take Friday off. I negotiated my own salary based on my experience, and I have no idea what any body else at my company makes. Some might make more, some less. No idea. I'm happy with the salary I negotiated. This year I got a 1% raise, which I wasn't expecting. Many in the private sector were not getting raises at all, some haven't gotten raises in a couple or more years. The company did really well this year, and I got a roughly 5% bonus check in Dec. This wasn't contracted or mandatory, the company did well and decided to share. That's the kind of company I work for.
When I watch pilot union discussions, there is so much hate and discontent on both sides that you have to wonder how or why the company is even in business. Each airline has its own pilot union with seniority list, so if a pilot was content working for a company 10 years ago, and that company has now gone to shit, he's stuck there because he won't leave to start at the bottom of the list of another airline, even though his experience may be more than that of many higher on the list than him. What exactly is the point of the list anyhow? Seniority that decides your ability to bid a line and domicile, right? And pay of course, because the union negotiates higher pay for the guys who have been there longer at the sacrifice of those in year 1 and possibly years 2-3-5 depending on the company. What if there was no list based on how long you were at the company? What if the list to bid a line and domicile was based on a function of experience (flight hours) and safety (no accidents/flight violations)? What if the salary was based on the same thing?
My opinion is that military guys who start as anti-union become pro-union because of the reality of the business and they have no other choice because that's how things are.
How many guys at United would love to jump ship to FedEx or UPS or SWA and they can't because they stuck?
What if ALPA, as a national organization, worked to revolutionize the system nationwide with a new national list, or a new system that ties pay to experience rather than longevity at a single company? What if they actually made things better for pilots by giving them the freedom to move from one company to another without having to start over?
Considering this topic evolved from a discussion about talking with your feet, what if the airline industry was reorganized so that pilots who were working for evil, greedy managers could talk with their feet and leave, and much like other areas of commerce, let the market decide fair working conditions instead of a union forcing it. If nobody wanted to work United, and could freely move to another company, is it possible United would change? Well, I guess you always have those guys who are willing to fly for free or with crappy work rules, so they screw it up, but that again is the free market.
Nobody says you are entitled a raise every year or a cushy retirement. What strikes me as odd about this discussion is that the military guys stuck their lives on the line for our country, our way of life, democracy, and free enterprise. And yet a union is counter to free enterprise, it forces a company to give employees benefits they would not get in a competitive work environment. And then, because of the adversarial relationship between the company and the union, the employees only get the bare minimum of benefits as specified in the contract regardless if the company could afford to give them more.
I work for a private company. I'm on salary, sometimes I work more than 80 hours per pay period with no overtime. I also have the latitude to work 12 hours on Weds and Thurs and take Friday off. I negotiated my own salary based on my experience, and I have no idea what any body else at my company makes. Some might make more, some less. No idea. I'm happy with the salary I negotiated. This year I got a 1% raise, which I wasn't expecting. Many in the private sector were not getting raises at all, some haven't gotten raises in a couple or more years. The company did really well this year, and I got a roughly 5% bonus check in Dec. This wasn't contracted or mandatory, the company did well and decided to share. That's the kind of company I work for.
When I watch pilot union discussions, there is so much hate and discontent on both sides that you have to wonder how or why the company is even in business. Each airline has its own pilot union with seniority list, so if a pilot was content working for a company 10 years ago, and that company has now gone to shit, he's stuck there because he won't leave to start at the bottom of the list of another airline, even though his experience may be more than that of many higher on the list than him. What exactly is the point of the list anyhow? Seniority that decides your ability to bid a line and domicile, right? And pay of course, because the union negotiates higher pay for the guys who have been there longer at the sacrifice of those in year 1 and possibly years 2-3-5 depending on the company. What if there was no list based on how long you were at the company? What if the list to bid a line and domicile was based on a function of experience (flight hours) and safety (no accidents/flight violations)? What if the salary was based on the same thing?
My opinion is that military guys who start as anti-union become pro-union because of the reality of the business and they have no other choice because that's how things are.
How many guys at United would love to jump ship to FedEx or UPS or SWA and they can't because they stuck?
What if ALPA, as a national organization, worked to revolutionize the system nationwide with a new national list, or a new system that ties pay to experience rather than longevity at a single company? What if they actually made things better for pilots by giving them the freedom to move from one company to another without having to start over?
Considering this topic evolved from a discussion about talking with your feet, what if the airline industry was reorganized so that pilots who were working for evil, greedy managers could talk with their feet and leave, and much like other areas of commerce, let the market decide fair working conditions instead of a union forcing it. If nobody wanted to work United, and could freely move to another company, is it possible United would change? Well, I guess you always have those guys who are willing to fly for free or with crappy work rules, so they screw it up, but that again is the free market.
Nobody says you are entitled a raise every year or a cushy retirement. What strikes me as odd about this discussion is that the military guys stuck their lives on the line for our country, our way of life, democracy, and free enterprise. And yet a union is counter to free enterprise, it forces a company to give employees benefits they would not get in a competitive work environment. And then, because of the adversarial relationship between the company and the union, the employees only get the bare minimum of benefits as specified in the contract regardless if the company could afford to give them more.
If every pilot negotiated for themself it would be a race to the bottom. The company would promote and hire the guys that would cut the most corners. You would see upgrades given to the guys who smoke the best pole just like they do in managment.
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
SWACQ summed up my "Fears" of airline flying pretty well.
I'm out in a year. Lets say I go to work for Delta. (I don't have the mins for FexEx/UPS, I think I'm OK for Delta)
I'm at Delta 3 years. Delta decides to no longer domicile pilots at my chosen spot. Domicile here in Norfolk or a place where it's a 1 hour, 1 leg commuter flight to get there for this argument.
I don't want the extra day of travel on top of each trip to get from Norfolk to ATL. I don't want to move. United has openings, I'm qualified, but I have to start over again at the bottom. So I'm either stuck with a shitty commute, or starting over at Airline B.
Non-Airline Job:
I go to work with SWACQ and Stinky. (theoretical here). I work for the company SWACQ does, in some function as an Engineer. Three years from now, that contractor moves to Lejune. I don't want to go to Lejune. I leave and get a job at Jim Bob's Engineering. I'm not going to start at the bottom at JimBobs. I can come in with a salary and position commensurate with experience.
The airlines seem like if you leave your "Squadron" for another, you start over as the know-nothing "LTJG 3P", even if you left as a LCDR Strike Lead.
On the outside looking in, that just seems AFU to me.
I'm out in a year. Lets say I go to work for Delta. (I don't have the mins for FexEx/UPS, I think I'm OK for Delta)
I'm at Delta 3 years. Delta decides to no longer domicile pilots at my chosen spot. Domicile here in Norfolk or a place where it's a 1 hour, 1 leg commuter flight to get there for this argument.
I don't want the extra day of travel on top of each trip to get from Norfolk to ATL. I don't want to move. United has openings, I'm qualified, but I have to start over again at the bottom. So I'm either stuck with a shitty commute, or starting over at Airline B.
Non-Airline Job:
I go to work with SWACQ and Stinky. (theoretical here). I work for the company SWACQ does, in some function as an Engineer. Three years from now, that contractor moves to Lejune. I don't want to go to Lejune. I leave and get a job at Jim Bob's Engineering. I'm not going to start at the bottom at JimBobs. I can come in with a salary and position commensurate with experience.
The airlines seem like if you leave your "Squadron" for another, you start over as the know-nothing "LTJG 3P", even if you left as a LCDR Strike Lead.
On the outside looking in, that just seems AFU to me.
Two points:
Seniority based systems are not exclusive to the airlines. It is fair and works. Places where "essentially" everybody is equally qualified it is a decent way of business. Airline mechanics, FEDEX rampers, UPS truck drivers, and many police/firefighters are seniority based. If you don't like where you work, interview somewhere else and start over. That is the rules of the game. I know somebody who just left Jetblue for Delta and just started at Southwest. The airlines have no commitments like the military. People quit and move on more than you think, even at the Major level!
ALPA is not like many other Unions. Maybe at the National level they may be more socialist (which many members [including myself] have a problem with). But from what I have seen, our members are well educated, not out to break the company and not blind sheep, like you see in the AFL-CIO, UAW and SEIU type of membership. My point- not all unions are the same.
Seniority based systems are not exclusive to the airlines. It is fair and works. Places where "essentially" everybody is equally qualified it is a decent way of business. Airline mechanics, FEDEX rampers, UPS truck drivers, and many police/firefighters are seniority based. If you don't like where you work, interview somewhere else and start over. That is the rules of the game. I know somebody who just left Jetblue for Delta and just started at Southwest. The airlines have no commitments like the military. People quit and move on more than you think, even at the Major level!
ALPA is not like many other Unions. Maybe at the National level they may be more socialist (which many members [including myself] have a problem with). But from what I have seen, our members are well educated, not out to break the company and not blind sheep, like you see in the AFL-CIO, UAW and SEIU type of membership. My point- not all unions are the same.
For those of you on the outside lookin' in ... the SHOW (not the regionals) is the BEST job you'll ever have ... unions, furloughs, strikes, whatever ... period. It may not be puttin' warheads on foreheads, but most of you don't get to do that anyway ... so what's the beef ???
If you're too 'scared' to cut the ties w/ UNCLE because you 'demand certainty' and a regular paycheck from the 'machine' ... rock on. Do your 20 and get out. Let's hope you don't miss a hiring cycle in the airlines.
But if you like it so much ... UNCLE, that is ... why go only 20 ??? Why retire @ 40-ish and have to find another 'job' ??? Why not make a 'career' out of it ???
I think we all know the answer to that one ...
If you're too 'scared' to cut the ties w/ UNCLE because you 'demand certainty' and a regular paycheck from the 'machine' ... rock on. Do your 20 and get out. Let's hope you don't miss a hiring cycle in the airlines.
But if you like it so much ... UNCLE, that is ... why go only 20 ??? Why retire @ 40-ish and have to find another 'job' ??? Why not make a 'career' out of it ???
I think we all know the answer to that one ...
For those of you on the outside lookin' in ... the SHOW (not the regionals) is the BEST job you'll ever have ... unions, furloughs, strikes, whatever ... period. It may not be puttin' warheads on foreheads, but most of you don't get to do that anyway ... so what's the beef ???
If you're too 'scared' to cut the ties w/ UNCLE because you 'demand certainty' and a regular paycheck from the 'machine' ... rock on. Do your 20 and get out. Let's hope you don't miss a hiring cycle in the airlines.
But if you like it so much ... UNCLE, that is ... why go only 20 ??? Why retire @ 40-ish and have to find another 'job' ??? Why not make a 'career' out of it ???
I think we all know the answer to that one ...
I think the answer is they won't keep promoting me enough to stay much longer, and even if they did, the jobs keep getting crappier the longer you stay.
I don't put "warheads on foreheads," but putting jarheads on ragheads isn't too shabby in my book.
"Scared?" Not really. I think that there's a reasonable middle ground between demanding absolute certainty of employment and not know if there's still a job for you next week. At the FRS we had a civilian who was on extended furlough from UAL and I've seen plenty of airline pilot reservists volunteer for AD because they weren't working. You can't tell me it's all sunshine and rainbows over there.
And I never have -- have I ....
But the 'fear' is very real ... I've experienced it ... and I know that no one but a fool would bail out of that semi-warm & cozy nest that IS UNCLE without experiencing SOME level of fear and trepidation. But UNCLE is warm & cozy only to a degree. Ever heard of failure to select, RIF's, etc, etc ... ??? They're not too 'cozy' ...
And then there's always that ol' problem: integrity. Do you REALLY want to stick it out for a 20-retirement while flying less and eating shit ... when others who sucked it up and bailed are moving on ???
I've experienced the union B.S. (however necessary it is), the strikes, the furloughs, the bankruptcies, the 'whatever' ... there's NO guarantees in life. Who ever told you there were 'guarantees' ???
The SHOW = still the best job you'll ever have unless you're killin' Cong ... and how long can you do THAT ???
I'm not trying to CONVINCE ANYONE TO GET 'OUT' AND GO FOR THE AIRLINES. You either want it -- or you don't. No skin off anyone's nose -- except your own if you could have 'made it'. Why do you keep arguing -- with YOURSELF. I guess you don't see it ... (?)
I'm just speaking from experience and giving you a reality check. If you don't want to listen to that 'advice' -- then DON'T. It doesn't matter to me. However, I've flown with and trained hundreds (probably a couple thousand) of pilots and ...
... I've never heard ONE man say: Gee ... I wish I'd stayed in longer ...
...
But if you like it so much ... UNCLE, that is ... why go only 20 ??? Why retire @ 40-ish and have to find another 'job' ??? Why not make a 'career' out of it ???
I think we all know the answer to that one ...
Because at 20 Uncle will pay me ~40k a year to go away and get another job? If you have the foresight to build a resume in your 20 years that can get you a job that will pay you as much as your active duty job then staying past 20 years just doesn't make a lot of sense unless you are still "in love" with the Navy.
(I've no interest in the airlines and no chicken in this pit, but thought I would throw in the obvious).
I'll be honest--I'd be retarded to get out at 16 years, especially since I've been DIFOP ever since leaving TBS and I've got two years left on this set of flying orders. God (and monitor) willing, I can keep flying the last two, as well. Voluntarily losing a pension with a huge lifetime value would be stupid, too.
I know I want to keep flying, I just don't know with what. The travel and work schedule of the airlines looks nice, but a part of me wants to keep doing some of the cool stuff, e.g. EMS, law enforcement, private military company, etc. Those don't get you free trips to Hawaii, but I think I'd look forward to going to work more if it involved carrying a trauma patient, say, rather than doing the same ORD to ? leg for the hundredth time.
If it has sounded like I've bagged on the airlines, I didn't mean to. I'm always skeptical of the grass being greener in different places. In my experience, whenever I go somewhere the grass was supposed to be greener, I see the same greeness, just different breeds of grass.
Back to my point, though. I get the idea about the pay, benefits, schedule, etc of the major airlines. Doesn't the flying get boring after a bit? I'm not presuming to know what it's like, but I know that if I'm on a 3 hour IFR cross country, when we're not actually in a terminal area, I'm bored out of my mind. Airliners routinely fly way longer than that. What is that part like, or is it way more interesting than it sounds? Is boredom just the price you pay for the fabulous prizes, or what?
I know I want to keep flying, I just don't know with what. The travel and work schedule of the airlines looks nice, but a part of me wants to keep doing some of the cool stuff, e.g. EMS, law enforcement, private military company, etc. Those don't get you free trips to Hawaii, but I think I'd look forward to going to work more if it involved carrying a trauma patient, say, rather than doing the same ORD to ? leg for the hundredth time.
If it has sounded like I've bagged on the airlines, I didn't mean to. I'm always skeptical of the grass being greener in different places. In my experience, whenever I go somewhere the grass was supposed to be greener, I see the same greeness, just different breeds of grass.
Back to my point, though. I get the idea about the pay, benefits, schedule, etc of the major airlines. Doesn't the flying get boring after a bit? I'm not presuming to know what it's like, but I know that if I'm on a 3 hour IFR cross country, when we're not actually in a terminal area, I'm bored out of my mind. Airliners routinely fly way longer than that. What is that part like, or is it way more interesting than it sounds? Is boredom just the price you pay for the fabulous prizes, or what?