The Return of the Fleming

[Gonzo08]

Anyone who's been involved with the Academy or kept up with Academy news for the last few years will be aware of one Professor Bruce Fleming. Said professor has a penchant for mouthing off to the media about inconsistencies and cracks he sees in the way the Naval Academy does business. Recently he had an article published in the NY Times covering a wide variety of subjects relating to the way the Naval Academy has been operating for the past few years. Superintendent Vice Adm Fowler wrote a rebuttal to this article a week later that appeared on the USNA Alumni webpage. Both links are posted below. Thoughts?

Fleming's Article: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/21/opinion/21fleming.html?pagewanted=1

Adm Fowler's Response: http://www.usna.com/SSLPage.aspx?RSS=whatsnew&referrer&pid=10554

 

[exhelodrvr]

Admiral Fowler does a very smooth job of talking around the points Prof Fleming made, which is to be expected.

From my observations (as a USNA grad), I didn't see a difference in the fleet between commissioning sources. Clearly Academy grads had a head start when it comes to general military knowledge, but the time spent in flight school tended to level that out. My guess is that the same applied to the nuclear power program, but that there was a noticeable difference for new ensigns in the Surface community.

However, there was definitely a higher incidence of cynicism/burnout from the Academy grads, so in a lot of (maybe most of) the cases, the headstart they had was lost, and things fairly quickly boiled down to who had the best combination of intelligence, hard work, and integrity, which did not seem to have a strong correlation to the school they attended/their commissioning program.

From what I have read over the past ten years, it sounds like that still applies.

Certainly the tradition of the service academies provide a significant amount of value, and for that reason they are worth keeping (IMO), but I don't see that they produce better officers.

 

[armada1651]

Completely unrelated to the actual thread, but I've been meaning to say this - your avatar is awesome.

 

[Schnugg]

In this case...I agree with Fleming.

 

[insanebikerboy]

In this case...I agree with Fleming.

Me too.

 

[phrogpilot73]

Me too.

Me three.

 

[phrogdriver]

The oddest point was the Admiral stating that since the bill for not completing USNA is $170,000, that the Academy is cost-competitive. That was definitely dancing around the question--there's no way that the cost of an Academy education, which includes room and board, not to mention using naval officers earning $70,000/yr+ as RA equivalents, is comparable with NROTC.

I'm an NROTC grad, but I believe there's a big place for the service academies. I just think Adm Fowler and the institution is busy being defensive, when it could be implementing positive change.

 

[sfrankie08]

Me three.

Me four.

I agree with phrogdriver. I think there is a place for service academies...but not with a double standard for admissions and not if we are wasting tax payer dollars by being so preoccupied with how well our sports teams do, that the team members can get away with murder (a bit of an exaggeration, but you get my point).

 

[Recovering LSO]

"The costs associated with educating an academy student are in fact comparable to or less than the total realized costs of educating an ROTC student at select private or other state-funded universities." - VADM Fowler. Ten years ago they were bragging on a quarter of a million dollar price tag. With the exception of Harvard, USC, MIT and perhaps a few, very FEW others, the good admiral is going to have a hard time convincing any reasonable observer that I-day to commissioning costs are comparable to ROTC.


"At the Naval Academy we take seriously our obligation to the American taxpayers to achieve the maximum return on their investment." - VADM Fowler. Granted, the funds came from private sources, BUT his recent accounting shenanigans might lead people to believe that this statement is not very genuine.

"...over the past three years been able to quickly increase foreign language and cultural exposure, initiate cyber warfare studies, adjust engineering and science courses..." - VADM Fowler. The University of X has been doing this for decades. Was it just in the past three years that we decided that it would be good to teach Farsi and stress Asian languages? That seems timely.

"While it may be popular to diminish the value of athletic competition at the intercollegiate level..." - VADM Fowler. Fleming did not take issue with intercollegiate athletics. He took issue with the Academy whoring itself out in an effort to make it big on the national stage WRT FOOTBALL. I highly doubt the professor questions the value added in intercollegiate athletics - its the misguided prioritization over academics that he is questioning.

"We search diligently in every congressional district for candidates..." - VADM Fowler. Since when did the Academy have to search the country for candidates. With an admission rate that historically hangs around 10%, I have to believe there are more than enough people applying to keep it competitive and ensure only the highest quality candidates become Plebes. Unless....Unless, they're looking for a particular kind of candidate.?.

"This commitment to excellence on the field complements the classroom, where the Naval Academy continually ranks number one or two in the nation for student-athlete graduation rates..." - VADM Fowler. Does anyone wonder how this is? Is there anyone, current student, alum, or other who thinks that the student athletes (specifically football players) don't receive a wink a nudge in many cases. That comment is not a blanket statement - I fully realize there are plenty of football players who work their tails off.

VADM Fowler missed a very good opportunity to decisively rebut Professor Flemming's article. He failed to stray away from tried and true (and tired) talking points on recruitment pamphlets.

 

[bigwill2876]

Had whatshisname ever served in an armed service capacity, ever taught at a non-Service Academy or been quoted when he doesn't have a publication he wrote that he is shilling for at any time, his words may carry or may have carried more weight.

But the constant biting the hand that feeds him gets old and he becomes more and more reduced in stature and relevance.

The sky has not fallen, is not falling, and won't fall.

 

[insanebikerboy]

Had whatshisname ever served in an armed service capacity, ever taught at a non-Service Academy or been quoted when he doesn't have a publication he wrote that he is shilling for at any time, his words may carry or may have carried more weight.

But the constant biting the hand that feeds him gets old and he becomes more and more reduced in stature and relevance.

The sky has not fallen, is not falling, and won't fall.

Many would disagree. Having been there, actually living the day to day life of the Academy during one of his articles, I can attest to the fact that he's pretty damn spot on with his assessments.

 

[Gonzo08]

I am tending to agree more with Prof Flemming's article for once. I like what Paddles had to say about comparing what VADM Fowler wrote to what is actually being observed. I know there is a separate thread altogether, but combine the accusations from Flemming with the "slush fund" debacle, and it seems that VADM Fowler (who may not stay a VADM for long) definitely screwed the pooch in a lot of aspects during his time at the Academy. It's a shame that something that has worked for so long could be compromised in such a short amount of time.

Also, thanks for the compliment on the avatar, I found it quite awesome and hilarious myself.

 

[bigwill2876]

Burps and bumps occur at any place, especially when someone get's "Peter Principled" to his place of incompetence, but The Yard has shook him off, and will shake off other "leaders" that don't lead as well.

Embrace you education, strive to make it a better place than you left it...perhaps one of you will find yourself at the helm...

 

[Recovering LSO]

Had whatshisname ever served in an armed service capacity, ever taught at a non-Service Academy or been quoted when he doesn't have a publication he wrote that he is shilling for at any time, his words may carry or may have carried more weight.

But the constant biting the hand that feeds him gets old and he becomes more and more reduced in stature and relevance.

The sky has not fallen, is not falling, and won't fall.

Does any of this change the fact that his points are valid? Your response is unfortunately familiar - don't like the message, attack the messenger.

 

[insanebikerboy]

...words...

Care to rebut any of Fleming's points instead of dancing around the article with not really so witty phrases?