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NEWS The Not So Friendly Skies....

ea6bflyr said:
One way United could of handled it: Declare the plane broken, de-plane everyone, then declare plane fixed. Re-board minus the selected (security at the gate). It would cost time, but it certainly wouldn't be in the national news.
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Or, as HAL said, and the direction robav8r was going, the Captain simply says, "I am not taking the aircraft with that guy on board because he is a disturbance and has refused to obey my cabin crew". Flight canceled, everybody hates the Doc as they deplane. Once in the gate area, security nabs the guy and they re-board. Hind sight is 20/20 though.

On legislating no over booking, I can dig it. You guys pay more for a ticket so I can ask for a raise. The hitherto fore full planes now have empty seats for Mrs. Wink and me to fly off to exotic destinations free of charge. Thanks Congress. You go!!
 
IRfly said:
No, I don't.

But are you seriously ok with the fact that what was basically a market supply-demand problem, i.e. the seats are in limited supply and have a value to each specific passenger as well as to United itself, was resolved when the corporation enlisted state violence on behalf of its own economic interests? United just walked away from the bargaining table and sent the cops after someone who was a danger to nothing and no one except a few United dollars. Where would you draw the line for corporations being able to do this kind of thing? Just at airlines?

This reminds me a bit of Kelo vs. City of New London on a micro scale and is one of those things where political lines aren't quite as clear.
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He didn't have to agree to terms and conditions by buying a ticket. The airline has every right to bump him, and they aren't required to offer more compensation than what is required by law. The dipshit that got dragged off the plane is 100% in the wrong legally.

Having said that, United might want to be more careful about actually allowing people to board before bumping them, to avoid damaging situations like this.
 
robav8r said:
OK HAL, understand you are an Airline Pilot, and in the industry. And clearly, I am not. However, are you telling me that the authority and influence (something I believe every flying passenger understands) of the Captain is something that cannot be exercised while the cabin door is open? I think most people (myself included) would heed the "recommendation" of the Captain much more so than the gate agent or some other airline employee.
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A couple of points:

1. The company policy for most air carriers specifically says these type of issues at the gate are supposed to be handled by the customer service agents and the Captain is to stay out of it unless it impacts the safety of the flight. Taking someone off a plane doesn't impact the safety of the flight. On the ground at the gate, the Captain might have influence but he lacks the authority. FAA derived authority over pax does not start until the door is closed and you are away from the gate.

2. No one, either the other pax or the company, wants delays. Delays have a ripple effect down line to other flights. If the Captain leaves the cockpit to handle pax issues instead of finishing his preflight, it will cause further delays.

3. Many times these issues happen and are handles without the cockpit even becoming aware they happened. With something as big as police boarding the plane, the cockpit would obviously know. But probably not until the police were already called.

4. If the Captain gets involved and it gets physical like it did in this situation, who is going to subsequently fly the plane. I have seen both customer service agents (on the ground) flight attendants (both on the ground and in the air) physically grabbed/assaulted by the pax, and in one incident in Pago Pago need to go to the hospital.

It really is for the best for the Captain and other pilots to stay out of the incident on the ground unless it is to demand a pax removal. Even then, we don't actually go back and confront the pax ourselves.
 
I have some input I'm curious about, I was debating with my boyfriend over this and I am strongly on the side of the legal legislation in place and that the doctor is a jackass (though I acquiesced that it could've *maybe* been handled better, though I didn't know how) and I got told frustratedly, "god you can be so conservative sometimes I hate it." When in the hell did this turn into some kind of political debate? Why is it that falling on the side of rules in place makes one a conservative? And why is this doctor muddying the waters by claiming he was profiled because he was Asian? Have we really declined so much as a society that educated doctors have to play the victim card when his tantrum doesn't earn him his way?
 
LadyAsh said:
I have some input I'm curious about, I was debating with my boyfriend over this and I am strongly on the side of the legal legislation in place and that the doctor is a jackass (though I acquiesced that it could've *maybe* been handled better, though I didn't know how) and I got told frustratedly, "god you can be so conservative sometimes I hate it." When in the hell did this turn into some kind of political debate? Why is it that falling on the side of rules in place makes one a conservative? And why is this doctor muddying the waters by claiming he was profiled because he was Asian? Have we really declined so much as a society that educated doctors have to play the victim card when his tantrum doesn't earn him his way?
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He sounds like a douchebag. He might not be, but that's definitely something a douchebag would say.
 
Treetop Flyer said:
He didn't have to agree to terms and conditions by buying a ticket. The airline has every right to bump him, and they aren't required to offer more compensation than what is required by law. The dipshit that got dragged off the plane is 100% in the wrong legally.

Having said that, United might want to be more careful about actually allowing people to board before bumping them, to avoid damaging situations like this.
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According to CNBC: http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/12/here...youre-involuntarily-bumped-from-a-flight.html
  • More than two hours later than your original arrival time on domestic flights, or more than four hours late on international flights: 400 percent of your one-way fare, up to a maximum $1,350.
  • Airlines are required to pay out that compensation in cash, Hobica said.
  • That amount is in addition to the value of your original ticket — which could be used to take that alternate flight the airline is offering.
Also from Time's Money section: http://time.com/money/4734755/know-your-rights-heres-what-an-airline-owes-you-when-you-get-bumped/
  • They must spell out your rights. This should be a written statement explaining why you're being bumped and your rights to compensation.
  • (In the case of Sunday's United flight, the crew eventually offered passengers $800 vouchers.) "They're trying to be cheap," (again, their word, not mine) Leocha says. "It's absolutely wrong."
  • They must cut you a check if you ask. You don’t have to accept vouchers, the U.S. Department of Transportation says.
Did United offer the appropriate amount of reimbursement? Did United provide a written statement? In any event, they are catching a huge amount of flack in Asia and will pay a settlement to make this go away. The doctor will come out well ahead financially - all because United did not want to take care of the customer for a situation they created.

Someone has a video of the original statement from United CEO Munoz.

 
Randy Daytona said:
According to CNBC: http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/12/here...youre-involuntarily-bumped-from-a-flight.html
  • More than two hours later than your original arrival time on domestic flights, or more than four hours late on international flights: 400 percent of your one-way fare, up to a maximum $1,350.
  • Airlines are required to pay out that compensation in cash, Hobica said.
  • That amount is in addition to the value of your original ticket — which could be used to take that alternate flight the airline is offering.
Also from Time's Money section: http://time.com/money/4734755/know-your-rights-heres-what-an-airline-owes-you-when-you-get-bumped/
  • They must spell out your rights. This should be a written statement explaining why you're being bumped and your rights to compensation.
  • (In the case of Sunday's United flight, the crew eventually offered passengers $800 vouchers.) "They're trying to be cheap," (again, their word, not mine) Leocha says. "It's absolutely wrong."
  • They must cut you a check if you ask. You don’t have to accept vouchers, the U.S. Department of Transportation says.
Did United offer the appropriate amount of reimbursement? Did United provide a written statement? In any event, they are catching a huge amount of flack in Asia and will pay a settlement to make this go away. The doctor will come out well ahead financially - all because United did not want to take care of the customer for a situation they created.

Someone has a video of the original statement from United CEO Munoz.

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I think this was it, actually.

 
The Points Guy has a pretty well written article on the subject. https://thepointsguy.com/2017/04/i-got-the-united-situation-wrong/

I tend to agree with this portion:

"We need to stop the culture of being worthless when flying. Can you imagine this happening at a hotel? You’re in your room that you paid for and they open the door and ask you to leave because a visiting sales executive with the chain needs the room? And if you refuse, cops come and drag you out? It’s ludicrous and wouldn’t happen in any other industry — why do we think it should happen on an airplane?"
 
Swanee said:
The Points Guy has a pretty well written article on the subject. https://thepointsguy.com/2017/04/i-got-the-united-situation-wrong/

I tend to agree with this portion:

"We need to stop the culture of being worthless when flying. Can you imagine this happening at a hotel? You’re in your room that you paid for and they open the door and ask you to leave because a visiting sales executive with the chain needs the room? And if you refuse, cops come and drag you out? It’s ludicrous and wouldn’t happen in any other industry — why do we think it should happen on an airplane?"
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Already posted above. Still a good read.
 
Swanee said:
"We need to stop the culture of being worthless when flying. Can you imagine this happening at a hotel? You’re in your room that you paid for and they open the door and ask you to leave because a visiting sales executive with the chain needs the room? And if you refuse, cops come and drag you out? It’s ludicrous and wouldn’t happen in any other industry — why do we think it should happen on an airplane?"
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That's not a good comparison unless the failure of that executive to get a room is somehow going to result in hundreds of other people who have paid for a room not getting one. That's the situation here - flight crews need to get to their flights or many more people are affected. I don't know why people aren't realizing that.
 
So for the airline bubbas what ability does a Pax have reclama being bumped? Every traveler obviously has some place to get to but what about those with an actual need to get someplace be it work related, family, etc? Traveling on orders as Mil is an obvious way to show you have a real need but what if you have some other life event on the other end without the benefit of orders, doc note, etc?
 
armada1651 said:
That's not a good comparison unless the failure of that executive to get a room is somehow going to result in hundreds of other people who have paid for a room not getting one. That's the situation here - flight crews need to get to their flights or many more people are affected. I don't know why people aren't realizing that.
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I do realize that. I don't agree with the utilitarian viewpoint on this one. You're saying that every single person on that other flight was more important that this guy.

A person on a completely different flight should not be affected by the airline's poor planning.


Skeds, try harder. Plan X amount of seats for deadheads. Don't need them? Fill them with standby passengers.
 
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