The Great Universal Health Care Debate w/Poll (note: it just passed both houses)

[Son of a Grunt]

God said, "be fruitful(or fertile) and multiply." I take that to mean: be ready financially to raise kids before you do. MB, I wish that I had enough rep to give you some.

 

[MasterBates]

Roads fall under interstate commerce.

Defense is under the constitution.

You want a "right to health care"?

Pass an amendment. Or get your state to do it (like MA)

 

[QuagmireMcGuire]

When is anyone ever financially ready to raise a child?

I'm 27 now. I'm not in a relationship at the moment. But, I do want kids. So, I should set up a savings account solely for saving money for my kids? How much does that cost now and days? I'll save for the worst case scenario - no father in the picture. Wait, or does that mean I would have to contribute doubly?

How much do those lil buggers go for nowadays? I'll put a deposit down for three.

 

[MasterBates]

Here is a good baseline-

If any of the following would cause financial peril:
Missing 1 week of work (sick kid)
Leaving work early on occasion (PT Conferences)
Doubling you food budget (kids eat less, but formula is expensive)
TRIPLING your clothing budget (kids grow fast)

You are not ready. I'm talking about putting you in a rent-or-insurance situation. Not a "I cant go to Chez Frenchy for lunch" situation.

Nobody is forcing you to have kids. You want them.

I want a Ferrari. I can't afford it. Will you cover my payments if I buy it and cannot afford it and the insurance?

I thought so.

 

[QuagmireMcGuire]

Here is a good baseline-

If any of the following would cause financial peril:
Missing 1 week of work (sick kid)
Leaving work early on occasion (PT Conferences)
Doubling you food budget (kids eat less, but formula is expensive)
TRIPLING your clothing budget (kids grow fast)

You are not ready. I'm talking about putting you in a rent-or-insurance situation. Not a "I cant go to Chez Frenchy for lunch" situation.

Nobody is forcing you to have kids. You want them.

I want a Ferrari. I can't afford it. Will you cover my payments if I buy it and cannot afford it and the insurance?

I thought so.

Sure, I'll help you pay for that Ferrari as soon as that Ferrari takes on the ability to be the next generation of American voters. We can become a nation of Ferraris. It'll be cute. We can have a play group for our Ferraris; I just got a very touching image of me pushing my Ferrari in a swing. I'll go to Subway and it'll be a Ferrari making my sandwich. It'll be a Ferrari asking you to breathe and cough when you are an old sick and lonely man.

 

[MasterBates]

So you want the next generation of American voters to be people who grew up depending on the govt for every need, cradle to grave..

QM, would the list of what you think the govt SHOULD NOT do be shorter?

How about making college mandatory? And the govt gets to decide what your major is based off your ASVAB scores.

Yearly PRTs for ALL CITIZENS!

Those to fat will be "Re-Educated" in Fat Camps.

 

[QuagmireMcGuire]

So you want the next generation of American voters to be people who grew up depending on the govt for every need, cradle to grave..

QM, would the list of what you think the govt SHOULD NOT do be shorter?

How about making college mandatory? And the govt gets to decide what your major is based off your ASVAB scores.

Yearly PRTs for ALL CITIZENS!

Those to fat will be "Re-Educated" in Fat Camps.

So you want the next generation of voters to be punished for having the audacity of being born to poor parents?

Shorter than what? I expect that every citizen have equal access to the necessities (food, shelter, health care). I expect that every citizen should be educated as to maintain a competitive and informed populace. I expect a society based upon just, common laws.

Fair game as to whether your food is a better quality than mine. Fair game as to whether you have a sprawling mansion or not. Fair game if your health insurance covers orthodontics and elective surgeries or not.

No, I don't think college should be mandatory. I do believe a high school education, in theory, creates a basis for an informed citizen.

At one time, we had yearly "PRTs"; I believe some states still require yearly physical tests. Remember those physical fitness tests we all had to go through every school year. I couldn't do a pull up to save my life.

 

[Spekkio]

Master,

1. I understand your concerns, but there are some things that you're simply not recognizing or overlooking:

-Under a UHC system, a guy like me who has a full-time job would be paying into the healthcare system. No one is taking personal responsibility away from anyone. You work, you pay taxes, you get health insurance. I would not be "freeloading" off of you at all.
-Under UHC, the overall premiums, ie the money out of your pocket, would go down due to two factors:

a. Everyone who is employed will be paying into the same system, and people aren't going to start running to the doctor constantly just because they have insurance now.

b. The organization running it does not need to make a profit.

-Again, there are many models for implementing UHC and how the cost would vary from consumer to consumer. Do I think it should operate like the income tax? Hell no. I think it should vary like private insurance dependent on multiple factors that assess your current health risk.

The downside, of course, is that you don't have a choice regarding which company you pick to cover you. However, with insurance rates what they are, you realistically don't have a choice now regarding your healthcare plan. You either have a job that supplies benefits and take what they offer (which might vary slightly in coverage/deductables, but it's the same company providing it), or you don't.

2. Using your "why should I be responsible for others" argument: Why is it employers' responsibility to subsidize absurd insurance rates? As a 24 year-old healthy male with no previous health conditions, I am what you would consider a low-risk client for health insurance companies. For me to pay $4,200 a year in insurance is outlandish. I have never spent that much on healthcare in a year in my life *knocks on wood.*

3. More along those lines, why should I be forced to work for a company or line of work that provides insurance for me to afford it? The number of companies that provide a comprehensive benefits package is shrinking rapidly, and the costs of what they still do provide are increasing just as quickly.

4. The average salary of a person in their 20s is $30-40,000. Sometimes it includes benefits, sometimes it doesn't. I'm not saying that everyone out of college should be millionaires. What I am saying is that when healthcare can only be afforded if you're rich or if your job is nice enough to give it to you, something is very, very wrong. More to the point, most jobs for these college graduates don't offer said benefits.

It's real easy to say "well, you should've been an engineering major then." Ok, so everyone wisens up and becomes an engineering major. What then? Are there enough engineering jobs offering benefits to support every college graduate?

Sometimes you get out of college and land a really good job right away, like you did. Sometimes it takes a little time due to fluxuating job markets. Unless a 22 year old college grad can somehow control the job market, I don't think that you can blame them for having to go without health insurance periodically.

5. If the government takes on UHC, it does not mean we're going to turn into a communist state tomorrow.

6. Where is the right to education in the Constitution? That's right, there is none. The government provides public education because it can do so cheaper than private companies, and the value of an educated society outweighs our freedom to choose whether or not we want our children to attend school. Such is the same case for healthcare.

 

[Hozer]

The organization running it does not need to make a profit.

Well, that's good. Because I can assure you that the gov't will do the opposite of that.
Seriously, given the gov't track record on programs like social security and welfare, which by admission of all political interests are economic time bombs, can anyone say with a straight face that UHC should be implemented?

Additionally, there are societal values which need to be addressed.

I forgot my liberal gibberish translation book at Starbuck's. Seriously, you should run for office. In Sweden.

 

[MasterBates]

Much like in Logans' Run, (classic movie, watch it) many people think only for today, and can't seem to grasp that there is a future, and there is a price to pay.. At least we don't have these:

YET

 

[Spekkio]

Well, that's good. Because I can assure you that the gov't will do the opposite of that.
Seriously, given the gov't track record on programs like social security and welfare, which by admission of all political interests are economic time bombs, can anyone say with a straight face that UHC should be implemented?

Well, are we discussing ideals or practice here?

From an ideal standpoint, I think that a streamlined, single-payer system is the optimal way for everyone to afford healthcare and be provided with comprehensive benefits for long term illnesses such as cancer, diabetes, etc.

But hell, from an ideal standpoint, my health insurance can remain a private choice and not cost more than 30 doctor's visits a year.

From a practical standpoint, I agree that there's no way in hell that we can get enough objective, intelligent people together to actually accomplish this. I said it many pages ago: there is too much money being made by too many people for anything meaningful to be done. But you also have to acknowledge that what we have isn't working. We're paying an assload of money for health care -- more than any other industrialized country. Yet we are not lowest in infant mortality. We are not highest in life expectancy. We are paying more and getting less.

What I think will happen is that the healthcare business is going to go belly-up. It won't be tomorrow, and probably not in the next decade, but eventually this system is going to implode. It will get to a point where healthcare becomes way too unaffordable (as if it isn't already). The suppliers, ie insurance companies, will jack their rates to the point where few people can afford them. They'll eventually start going bankrupt as fewer and fewer people sign up for benefits. Doctors will either be put out of work, or have to lower their billing to the point where they're not making more than a construction worker. In turn, the amount of med school applicants and graduates will decrease sharply -- who wants to go to school for 10 years (residency included) to make $50,000? Pharmacy companies will eventually have to fold because few people can afford their products.

Mortgage companies are finally paying the price of doing lucrative business taking advantage of people. Healthcare is soon to follow.

Only then will any meaningful healthcare policy be put into place.

 

[QuagmireMcGuire]

I forgot my liberal gibberish translation book at Starbuck's. Seriously, you should run for office. In Sweden.

Maybe this comment was a kneejerk response. I would hazard a guess that you've become comfortable labeling anyone with an opinion different than your's as a liberal because my comments speak of identifying societal values which have deteriorated over the generations. A conservative is a person who wishes to preserve the traditional values; it would seem that I am espousing a conservative viewpoint there, sir.

To simplify, I don't think many of us will disagree that the rising rate of children being born into single mother households is alarming. I don't think many of us will disagree that there is a growing culture of people unwilling to accept financial responsibility for their own actions. I don't think many of us will disagree that there is a growing population of lazy individuals who take and take but never give.

Unfortunately, many of these values begin at home, around the dinner table. But, the importance of family and cohesiveness has dissolved drastically. Those values need to be addressed before you see a turnabout.

 

[Harrier Dude]

.....there is too much money being made by too many people for anything meaningful to be done.

What I think will happen is that the healthcare business is going to go belly-up. It won't be tomorrow, and probably not in the next decade, but eventually this system is going to implode. It will get to a point where healthcare becomes way too unaffordable (as if it isn't already). The suppliers, ie insurance companies, will jack their rates to the point where few people can afford them. They'll eventually start going bankrupt as fewer and fewer people sign up for benefits. Doctors will either be put out of work, or have to lower their billing to the point where they're not making more than a construction worker. In turn, the amount of med school applicants and graduates will decrease sharply -- who wants to go to school for 10 years (residency included) to make $50,000? Pharmacy companies will eventually have to fold because few people can afford their products.

Mortgage companies are finally paying the price of doing lucrative business taking advantage of people. Healthcare is soon to follow.

Please, please......oh PLEASE run out and buy an Economics 101 textbook. Today. Read it cover to cover.....twice....and then get back to me. Pay special attention to the terms "supply and demand". They will be discussed at length and will astonish you with their impact on your argument above.

Yet ........... We are not lowest in life expectancy.

I'm pretty sure that's a good thing.

 

[raptor10]

Interesting. Just to appease you, I went to the site myself. I do not smoke, and I am not a college student:

I'm curious how you got yours down to 10% of what it'd cost me to get health insurance with a $2800 deductable.

I think they saw that you use vista and internet explorer so they figured you were used to getting fleeced...

 

[Cate]

Excellent. And that $5,000 deductible doesn't bother you at all?

Much like in Logans' Run, (classic movie, watch it) many people think only for today, and can't seem to grasp that there is a future, and there is a price to pay.

I think more people grasp that than you think. I think that a lot of people are trying to prepare for the future, and that means making sacrifices now. There aren't a lot of careers that leave you flush with cash the whole way through; otherwise, everyone would have one. Most jobs involve at least a little bit of sacrifice at the beginning. Most of the successful entrepreneurs who are so lauded now for being self-made went through a period early on when they weren't sure that they'd be able to break even, when making rent was a challenge, when something like a car accident or a questionable mole would have been enough to ruin them.

There are jobs that'll get you rich quick, and there are jobs that'll offer lasting security, but to get both the whole way through usually involves illegal activity.