The Great Universal Health Care Debate w/Poll (note: it just passed both houses)

[QuagmireMcGuire]

Just so you're aware, workman's compensation is legal required for pretty much all companies, with very very few exceptions. So, in your example, if you had your arm caught, your employer would be on the hook for your medical care, not you. That applies to practically all accidents. I'm surprised you don't know that as a law school graduate?




People who can't buy insurance because of an "entry level job" amaze me. When I was 16 years old and still in high school, I worked at KFC and put in enough hours to qualify to buy into a limited insurance policy for myself. I didn't need it since I was covered under my parents, but the point still remains.

I still maintain that if a person wants insurance, go get a job that provides the opportunity. If a job doesn't, and a person really wants insurance, go find another job. If I could get it at 16 years old at a fast food joint, I don't think it should be too hard for a college graduate to do the same.


I shouldn't be required to pay for your insurance if you don't have the gumption to go find a job or do what you need to do to have it.

And here I said I was done....

Have you ever seen those television ads with lawyers advertising their services for people with Worker's Comp claims? There are necessary and affirmative steps that an employee must make in order to receive compensation. It is called compensation for a reason.

First, you have to provide notice of your accident to your employer- line manager or shift manager. If you are an uninformed worker who knowingly put your arm into a machine then you are going to be reluctant to report your mistake. Second, you have to file a formal claim with the appropriate agency. Third, if the person is unsure of the proper procedure, they could find themselves adversely affecting their claim if they sign documents which their employer says they must sign. Fourth, the employee must submit to an examination. Depending on the jurisdiction, the time of reporting an injury varies. Depending on the jurisdiction, the time of filing a claim varies. Depending on the jurisdiction, the process, time of coverage, and the time of an open claim will vary.

This factory had a no tolerance rule which stated that if any employee stuck their arm into a machine without first placing safety locks on the machine, they would be immediately terminated. You have a factory full of over-worked, over-heated employees who are timed for efficiency, many times, they would go against this policy. If you failed to report your injury for fear of retribution then you don't have a claim, do you? Who will pay those expenses then? I know of one situation of an older man who was injured, told co-workers but failed to go to his shift manager; he paid for his own expenses but found that his injury was sustaining. He went to report it but time had elapsed between the injury and his reporting of it. He started to miss work because of the lingering injury and eventually lost his job.

When I fell sick, I went to the office and reported it. They gave me a paper to sign and I called a friend to pick me up. I don't even know what I signed; it may have been an incident report. They asked if I needed an ambulance. I declined. I went home, went to bed, and then went to the hospital the next morning. I paid for my own expenses.

There was also rampant sexual harassment committed by the managers towards the women on the line. I saw women's breasts fondled; I even know of women who slept with their line boss during break so that they could get lighter duties. Other workers kept their mouth shut; the women either ignored it or resigned themselves to it.

When you believe that you don't have many options to you then you will settle for anything; you will not do anything which may impact your employment status. Companies such as this factory know this and they rely upon the ignorance and fear of their employees. Yes, there was a union but there were two levels of employees at this factory. Those who were "temporary" and those who were permanent. Only after you were deemed a "perm" worker were you permitted to join the union.

Surprisingly, finding a job that has health benefits may not be as easy as you would think. If you accept an internship or you work as a contractor/temporary employee then you may not have a health insurance plan available to you. I worked as a researcher in an academic field; there was no option of a health insurance plan through my position.

 

[raptor10]

And here I said I was done....

Have you ever seen those television ads with lawyers advertising their services for people with Worker's Comp claims? There are necessary and affirmative steps that an employee must make in order to receive compensation. It is called compensation for a reason.

First, you have to provide notice of your accident to your employer- line manager or shift manager. If you are an uninformed worker who knowingly put your arm into a machine then you are going to be reluctant to report your mistake. Second, you have to file a formal claim with the appropriate agency. Third, if the person is unsure of the proper procedure, they could find themselves adversely affecting their claim if they sign documents which their employer says they must sign. Fourth, the employee must submit to an examination. Depending on the jurisdiction, the time of reporting an injury varies. Depending on the jurisdiction, the time of filing a claim varies. Depending on the jurisdiction, the process, time of coverage, and the time of an open claim will vary.

This factory had a no tolerance rule which stated that if any employee stuck their arm into a machine without first placing safety locks on the machine, they would be immediately terminated. You have a factory full of over-worked, over-heated employees who are timed for efficiency, many times, they would go against this policy. If you failed to report your injury for fear of retribution then you don't have a claim, do you? Who will pay those expenses then? I know of one situation of an older man who was injured, told co-workers but failed to go to his shift manager; he paid for his own expenses but found that his injury was sustaining. He went to report it but time had elapsed between the injury and his reporting of it. He started to miss work because of the lingering injury and eventually lost his job.

When I fell sick, I went to the office and reported it. They gave me a paper to sign and I called a friend to pick me up. I don't even know what I signed; it may have been an incident report. They asked if I needed an ambulance. I declined. I went home, went to bed, and then went to the hospital the next morning. I paid for my own expenses.

There was also rampant sexual harassment committed by the managers towards the women on the line. I saw women's breasts fondled; I even know of women who slept with their line boss during break so that they could get lighter duties. Other workers kept their mouth shut; the women either ignored it or resigned themselves to it.

When you believe that you don't have many options to you then you will settle for anything; you will not do anything which may impact your employment status. Companies such as this factory know this and they rely upon the ignorance and fear of their employees. Yes, there was a union but there were two levels of employees at this factory. Those who were "temporary" and those who were permanent. Only after you were deemed a "perm" worker were you permitted to join the union.

Surprisingly, finding a job that has health benefits may not be as easy as you would think. If you accept an internship or you work as a contractor/temporary employee then you may not have a health insurance plan available to you. I worked as a researcher in an academic field; there was no option of a health insurance plan through my position.

That argument is the best argument against Universal Health Care in this thread...

 

[insanebikerboy]

When you believe that you don't have many options to you then you will settle for anything; you will not do anything which may impact your employment status. Companies such as this factory know this and they rely upon the ignorance and fear of their employees. Yes, there was a union but there were two levels of employees at this factory. Those who were "temporary" and those who were permanent. Only after you were deemed a "perm" worker were you permitted to join the union.

I believe your example sounds strangely like the movie North Country :icon_tong

Seriously, that sucks, but I shouldn't be held responsible for someone else's ignorance (why didn't you read the paper you signed?). In addition, I shouldn't be held responsible if someone decides to go against proper procedure and safety practices (the old fella who got his arm hurt). I have to ask, would he have gotten hurt if he would've used the safety? He knew the operation, knew the requirement. Being tired/rushed/whatever is no excuse to do the job improperly.

I think somewhere in all of this thread you've mentioned trying to join the Navy and be a pilot. If so, you'll become intimately familiar with Natops. Similar situation, you violate Natops, you risk losing wings. Everyone knows the rule, everyone knows what to do, so there's not much sympathy for willingly violating something like that.

My dad was injured once on the job when I was younger. I don't remember all the details, and I do remember that there were hoops he had to jump through, but in the end workman's compensation took care of him. Someone (the people at your factory) shouldn't be afraid of what is rightfully theirs.

Surprisingly, finding a job that has health benefits may not be as easy as you would think. If you accept an internship or you work as a contractor/temporary employee then you may not have a health insurance plan available to you. I worked as a researcher in an academic field; there was no option of a health insurance plan through my position.

Never said it was easy per se, what I was implying was that a person who wants insurance as part of their employment would do what was necessary to get it. In your case, you worked at a job that didn't provide insurance. It would appear to me that you valued working at that specific job over the chance to have insurance. If you had wanted insurance more, I submit you would've either found a different academic position or a completely different job.

Can't always have your cake and eat it to. Decisions have to be made, sometimes really tough decisions, and other people shouldn't be responsible for filling in the gaps, for you, due to your choices.

 

[Flash]

Flash, you are talking about a miniscule portion of total services. The bulk of routine visits could/should be pay as you go. Routine physicals, vaccinations, sick calls, minor injuries, constitute the vast bulk of doctor visits.
You know, there was medical care before HMO's.
It's interesting that you mention that malpractice insurance isn't significant. As I mentioned before, it's over 40% of a good friends gross income.
I don't doubt that all the specialized people and equipment cost money.
We go to war with the best equipment and people in the world and we (DoD) cost less the Medicare/Medicaid expenditure. My point is, with all the entrenched bureaucracy, how do we know how much a procedure really costs?

Medical care before HMO's was Blue Cross and Blue Shield, which acted as a national health care system before HMO's came and lured away the healthiest patients with lower costs.

I don't think that you really grasp the impact that technology and medicine have had on the costs of health care. Some things that were ignored and/or not even treated just 30-40 years ago now cost thousands of dollars to treat with the latest medicines and specialized equipment. Phrogpilot73 actually does have a point too that we shoulder the cost of much more reasearch than any other single coutnry, but that still does not for the great cost of medical care in this country. Nor does bureaucracy, which does account for some but nowhere near the majority of costs.
Have you ever seen how much the blood tests cost for a pregnant woman nowadays? I do, it runs in the hundreds. Add to that sonograms and the constant checkups, you running into the thousands even for a healthy baby. Nearly all of these technologies did not when I was born a little over 30 years ago, but they have greatly helped in the healthy development of many children that would not have gotten necessary care before. Health care just a generation ago was much more stark and unforgiving, believe it.

The fallacy behind pay as you go is that it would prevent many people from getting that preventitive care that many need, resulting in higher costs in the long term when those problems manifest themselves as serious health issues. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

And to use the comparison of the military and our equipment is a very poor one. Not everyone needs body armor in this country, or the latest ECM gear to defeat a SA-15. But everyone in this country needs medical care, sooner or later. Equipping 2 million people in the military is a lot different than treating 300 million with medical care.

 

[Son of a Grunt]

I agree with insanebikerboy, that the entry level job argument is very weak. If someone doesn't have the gumption to fend for himself, then all the more reason to not make some else pay for his health care, lottery tickets, beer, cigarettes, etc. Heck, I'm 15 and I earn between 20 and 40 bucks an hour trimming horse hooves and I run my own livestock operation.

 

[Spekkio]

I shouldn't be required to pay for your insurance if you don't have the gumption to go find a job or do what you need to do to have it.

But the thing is it's not like people aren't looking for jobs that offer health insurance. You make it sound like if I open the paper today, I'm going to see a plethora of jobs that offer benefits and I can get one tomorrow. If you have bills to pay, and the only job offers coming back don't offer benefits at the time, you have to take something. That something usually doesn't pay enough for you to meet bills and take on a $2k/year health insurance plan that doesn't even offer coverage for the really bad stuff.

Sure, 6 months to 1 year down the line you might find a job that offers benefits, or the entry level job you're in promotes you and starts to give them along with a pay raise. But what do you do if you get seriously injured or sick in that time? You do like me and many other lower to mid 20 year olds are doing: you play the odds and hope that it doesn't come to that.

Hell, I would have been under an insurance plan by now if the company I was working at before didn't go bankrupt. It sure was fun trying to find a job around here when 2,000 people got laid off all at the same time. But I'm sure it's somehow my fault that the company I was working for earlier this year went under like a week before I was going to be past that probation period.

At 16 years old, were you paying for your rent, utilities, transportation, and food on that KFC salary?

Also, as I said before, since you and I were 16, companies have been scaling back the amount of benefits that they offer employees in general. They are also less inclined to offer benefits to new employees until they are relatively sure the employee isn't going to turn around and quit on them.

Finally, you make it sound like people with entry-level jobs wouldn't be paying into the system. They would, being that it's mandatory.

As it stands, it's a simple fact of life that there are many, many more entry level jobs that don't offer healthcare than those that do. Even if everyone were to make the right choices, they wouldn't all be able to get what amounts to a limited number of slots.

 

[raptor10]

Since you said you don't have health insurance, this site here: http://www.ehealthinsurance.com/ has a search engine of reputable health insurance plans with a multitude of options.

There. 1 down, 39,999,999 Americans to go...

 

[ChunksJR]

....I run my own livestock operation.

Where the women are men...and the sheep are scared...

 

[insanebikerboy]

At 16 years old, were you paying for your rent, utilities, transportation, and food on that KFC salary?

As a matter of fact, my transportation (bought my own truck, paid for my insurance on it), food, and I even helped my mom with the rent sometimes. We didn't have much, so that's why I worked 30 hours a week in high school on top of sports and going to school.

So yes, if I needed to I could've supported myself.

 

[Hozer]

Have you ever seen how much the blood tests cost for a pregnant woman nowadays? I do, it runs in the hundreds. Add to that sonograms and the constant checkups, you running into the thousands even for a healthy baby. Nearly all of these technologies did not when I was born a little over 30 years ago, but they have greatly helped in the healthy development of many children that would not have gotten necessary care before. Health care just a generation ago was much more stark and unforgiving, believe it.

Most women only rate one sonogram during a pregnancy. The check-ups you describe usually involve measuring with a tape and a brief fetal heart monitor check.
I've been through this too with the wife, 3 times.

The fallacy behind pay as you go is that it would prevent many people from getting that preventitive care that many need, resulting in higher costs in the long term when those problems manifest themselves as serious health issues. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

You're talking about a choice again. If someone chooses to pay for cable tv rather than go get an annual physical that could lead to early detection, that's his/her choice. I'm also not sure that making a service "free" (at the expense of everyone) available would compel someone to go to the doctor. I think it likely that many would still not seek preventative care, and only go after symptoms popped up.
This discussion is really about personal priorities. Needs vs. perceived needs which are really wants.

And to use the comparison of the military and our equipment is a very poor one. Not everyone needs body armor in this country, or the latest ECM gear to defeat a SA-15. But everyone in this country needs medical care, sooner or later. Equipping 2 million people in the military is a lot different than treating 300 million with medical care.

My point is, Medicare/Medicaid already cost this country more than defense. That doesn't include social security.

Similarly, from 2003 to 2026, instead of running a cumulative surplus totaling $6.5 trillion, as estimated by the Social Security and Medicare trustees, the programs would run a cumulative deficit totaling $6.6 trillion

From the CBO, what do you think nationalizing health care will cost?

 

[Cate]

But the thing is it's not like people aren't looking for jobs that offer health insurance. You make it sound like if I open the paper today, I'm going to see a plethora of jobs that offer benefits and I can get one tomorrow. If you have bills to pay, and the only job offers coming back don't offer benefits at the time, you have to take something. That something usually doesn't pay enough for you to meet bills and take on a $2k/year health insurance plan that doesn't even offer coverage for the really bad stuff.

That was exactly my situation. When I got out of college, the job market was in the crapper, and I was having a bear of a time finding work -- everyone loved my resume but just didn't have an opening. Unwilling to just not work, I temped for three months before finding a temp-to-perm position, but even then, I was on probation for twelve weeks before my benefits kicked in. That was six months of full-time work and active job seeking during which I was completely unprotected. I've changed jobs twice since then, and each time, I've had a three- to six-month probationary period before my benefits kicked in.

As for private health insurance, it's out there, but it'll cost you. And don't start talking about how people just need to save their money and invest wisely -- if you're a recent college grad in the position that I was in, you haven't had an opportunity to save the kind of money necessary to pay for your own insurance. Not to mention the fact that none of those insurance providers are required to take you on as a client; they'll turn you down for the most minor of health care concerns, because if your potential health care expenses won't be offset by the contributions of a group policy, you're not worth the risk.

A physician I work with told me about one of his residents who went through three insurance providers in three months. She had type-1 diabetes, and her insurers kept dropping coverage for diabetes testing supplies. That way, they could honestly say that, sure, they accept diabetes as a pre-existing condition -- but they wouldn't have to actually insure any diabetics with their insane health care expenses, because anyone interested in checking their blood sugar before administering insulin would move on to a provider that would cover testing supplies. Now, as a physician, she'll probably end up making enough money to more than cover her medical needs -- but getting there takes time, making money takes time, getting established in a career takes time, and in the meantime, people with medical needs are frequently left without a lot of options.

 

[raptor10]

There were some pretty affordable ($32-$204) health insurance plans when I plugged in my variables, on www.ehealthinsurance.com ...

 

[QuagmireMcGuire]

I believe your example sounds strangely like the movie North Country :icon_tong

Seriously, that sucks, but I shouldn't be held responsible for someone else's ignorance (why didn't you read the paper you signed?). In addition, I shouldn't be held responsible if someone decides to go against proper procedure and safety practices (the old fella who got his arm hurt). I have to ask, would he have gotten hurt if he would've used the safety? He knew the operation, knew the requirement. Being tired/rushed/whatever is no excuse to do the job improperly.

I think somewhere in all of this thread you've mentioned trying to join the Navy and be a pilot. If so, you'll become intimately familiar with Natops. Similar situation, you violate Natops, you risk losing wings. Everyone knows the rule, everyone knows what to do, so there's not much sympathy for willingly violating something like that.

My dad was injured once on the job when I was younger. I don't remember all the details, and I do remember that there were hoops he had to jump through, but in the end workman's compensation took care of him. Someone (the people at your factory) shouldn't be afraid of what is rightfully theirs.





Never said it was easy per se, what I was implying was that a person who wants insurance as part of their employment would do what was necessary to get it. In your case, you worked at a job that didn't provide insurance. It would appear to me that you valued working at that specific job over the chance to have insurance. If you had wanted insurance more, I submit you would've either found a different academic position or a completely different job.

Can't always have your cake and eat it to. Decisions have to be made, sometimes really tough decisions, and other people shouldn't be responsible for filling in the gaps, for you, due to your choices.

The reason that I mentioned my own story was to illustrate the point that not all underinsured and uninsured individuals were high school drop-outs. I mentioned the story of the old man as another illustration since so many of you have this perception that it is lazy, shiftless people who are not covered.

I read the paper but my mind was completely not focusing on what it was saying. I was told I couldn't leave until I signed; the only thing I wanted to do was leave. As to the factory, it was a plastic bottle factory; when the machines became hot, the plastic bottles began to melt and they jammed the machine. The policy was to call a line-manager who would then place a safety on the machine, shut it down, and then retrieve the bottle. Yet, when a bottle gets jammed, all of the other bottles get backed up and you can lose a large chunk of your finished products. It was much quicker to just reach your hand into the opening and yank out the stuck bottle. I remember the first time it happened to me; I followed procedure, got the line boss, he came over and stuck his hand into the machine and pulled out the bottle. He yelled at me to do the same since the time it took for him to come over resulted in nearly a backup of a 100 bottles.

Anyway, I digress from my purpose. The fact exists that there are many people who are full-time employed that do not have health insurance or they are underinsured.

Perhaps some of you may not be that familiar with the present job market; I am presuming. In today's market, older and more experienced workers are being pushed out for younger and cheaper workers. There are hundreds of thousands of college graduates out there fighting for these positions; it is the employer's market. But this is yet another topic for another time.

I valued being employed. I valued acquiring experience that looks pretty darn good on my resume. If you want those higher paying jobs with those great benefits then you have to stick out from the rest; now and days, you have to have a couple of years of experience just to get an entry level position.

 

[MasterBates]

If you need experience, its not entry level.

Like I said before, you can invest in your future, or you can whine and hope I cover your ass if UHC passes. You made your choices, deal with life.

Life isn't fair. That is about the only true constant.

 

[ChunksJR]

Anyway, I digress from my purpose. The fact exists that there are many people who are full-time employed that do not have health insurance or they are underinsured.

By their own choice.